Sour Art 0

[ESeffinga]

Thanks. I remembered the broad gist of it, and reading an article about it. I don’t read any modern Marvel books though, so I was somewhat removed. 

[The Voord]

20 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

Indeed. THe real kicker in comics is that many (most?) books are not from a single author. It's been one of the joys and challenges of the medium. I'm sure it's why in my own personal case, the stuff i like the most tends to be books from a single creator. BUT, I have some real favorites that either started off as single creator, books, or just had really great teams on them. As to the message, I think everybody gets to put in their "say" to some degree. How often have little messages been dropped in comics in background street names, stores, graffiti, etc. Often these are simple nods to influences or past "names" on the book. Sometimes not.

I seem to recall an artist from somewhere (Malaysia?) recently, that got into a whole mess of trouble (fired?) over putting some hidden messages in his work for one of the big two. I'm sure someone here will remember the guy/book. That didn't go over so well for him.

Creative teams do make for interesting dynamics. In fact, they don't always have to get along, or even have a singular vision, for a work to be interesting. Sometimes conflict can lead to happy accidents in art. Though I don't think those creative teams tend to last very long as working relationships, before they melt down, or decide to go separate ways.

The pieces I've sold off because I just didn't want to look at them any more were all let go over personal dismay, rather than larger political,social views, or the person just being a general "d i c k". I'd bet there are folks who don't want to look at some work because it was shared with a former spouse or things like that. Anybody ever sold art because of an Ex, and the emotional baggage that carries? Knock on wood, I've never had that experience. Though I've had friends with guitars that sold them because a former significant other gave them to them, and they just couldn't stand the sight of them anymore. That's gotta be a tough one for OA. There is on;y one, after all.

I ended-up having to sell my first home because I'd bought it with a previous girlfriend and her replacement (now my beloved wife) had serious issues with the idea!  I thought that replacing the bed I once shared with someone else might placate her but, no, then came the house!

[BCarter27]

9 minutes ago, The Voord said:

I thought that replacing the bed I once shared with someone else might placate her but, no, then came the house!

Jealousy is the foundation of any successful relationship!

[jqa3]

7 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

I don't think an artist's views are relevant to the quality of the art, so I don't pay attention to them. I'm not planning to go hang out with the artist, so why would it matter?

I feel the same about actors, sports figures and others who are famous for specific reasons.

 

"Never confuse the Artist with the Art."

Probably easier said than done in some cases. 

[Flambit]

3 hours ago, Kizarny said:

I've had pieces turn sour, but never because of the artist. For me it was because of the process of the deal (and more specifically the seller).... 

Yeah, that's really where I thought this thread was going...

[Bird]

Never meet your heroes is good advice. 

[otherworldsj331]

If the political, social and/or religious content of a piece contradicts my beliefs, then I will not buy it. The artists views are a secondary consideration, though I would shy away from a piece if his or her views were seriously adverse to mine.

[Rick2you2]

19 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Really? I know by and large we are talking about comic art on this board, so it's probably slightly less relevant in the day to day. I say slightly because quite frankly I don't think much of Miller's body of work would exist without his "views". And that goes for a great many revered comic artists and writers. And God knows, it is crucial for fine art.

If one only sees "art" or "Art" with a capital A as being decorative, and thus a skillset, then I fear that person is missing a huge part of what makes art work. Art is about a connection through shared human experience (among many other things) and it's why stories carry us away. Either to totally new places, or places unfamiliar. Would Green Latern 76 be what it is without "views"? And it doesn't even have to be an example so on the nose. Subtly, all art is infused with the "views" of it's creator. Some intentional, and much unintentionally so. It's just part of who they are. Through the choices of dialogue, through character depiction, through the stories they tell and how they tell them. I get it with a sports star. Maybe less with say... a musician, because here again too, many great songs and songwriters and bands have had plenty to say to the world through their art. Actors... that can be down to the editorial choice of the types of pictures they choose to be in, and whatnot. moreso than their "public persona" via social media, appearances and the like. But still can be a pretty decent reflection of their "views".

All in all, I am all about artists with "views", because it means the work they are creating has a deeper meaning to them than just a paycheck. And there's nothing wrong with doing a job for a paycheck, but honestly, to me that speaks nothing to the human condition, and therefor is less an art than a skill. Plenty of guys can draw a Toyota Rav 4, or Superman, or a squirrel. Far fewer can make an impact on the community around them, and the world. No matter how subtle or under the radar.

And FWIW, I never go out of my way looking for work that line up with my own viewpoints on the world. instead I find, I tend to connect with work that speaks to me in a more personal humanistic way. I'd shudder to think what the world would loose if "views" were not expressed through art.

 

But that's just me...

I think you are mixing apples and oranges. My understanding of the OP's statement involved an artist's views which he learned after buying the art, not beforehand. That is because he wrote:

"For me was the Politic Views of the artist
He was so outspoken
I try to forget the nasty things he say and focus on the art"

Artwork can certainly present an artist's views. Where would Picasso's Guernica be without his obvious expression that War is Hell, particularly on the civilians? That's what makes it so effective.

But what of an artist who has views outside the artwork itself? I don't care one way or the other if an artist likes or dislikes President Trump--unless his art involves President Trump and it heightens the quality of the art because of it. That is what you are addressing: impact within the context of the art. I thought the OP was addressing outside comments. 

Finally, let me add that an artist's work is not the same as a writer's work. The artist is supposed to be working in the context of a prior plot and -script, while doing his best to move them forward. So, he/she should have even less influence on the final product in terms of political overtones (drama, sure; impact, obviously). And, while you reference GL/GA 76, I think you are ignoring Denny O'Neill's own strong, leftward leanings, which he had also expressed, just because Adam's views are so well known. 

 

[ESeffinga]

I absolutely consider the writing as equal to the illustrator in the context of creating my “art” in comics. The “art” of comics is words and pictures combined. It is a large portion of what is unique to the form of comic art. There are wordless comics, and there are heavily worded comics, with minimal illustrations, but the genre as a whole lies in the combo between the two. I didn’t mention O’neal simply as an oversight on my part. Never ignoring the writer. I actually agree with you totally on that point.

 

Where I might disagree (albeit possibly slightly) is that the work of most any artist (and in this I am including the writer as well as the guy making the pictures) is imbued with their views. Either overtly, as in the case of Guernica or the GL issue. Which I stated as being “on the nose” examples. But also unintentionally. Subliminally. Subtly. 

Theres a whole section in that post that is the crux of my point. Someone reading a story may not get hit over the head with the politics/social stances of the author of the work, but it doesn’t negate that it was there all along. And that those standings imbue their work with their “view” of the world. 

Let’s take the most obvious example of this and then exaggerate it to try and illustrate my point.

Lee and Kirby. X-Men.

Everybody gets the metaphor. It’s common knowledge today. It was 2 artists telling a story that had social implications.

To me, it would be like reading an interview with Stan Lee saying saying he  feels as though society is persecuting other races, and someone read this interview and gets “soured” because they just want to read X-Men because they like their powers and the fighting.

As I say, I am grossly exaggerating the subtleltly of the human mind, writing, and they way it influences the way a creative expresses themselves to a more on the nose example. But there are all kinds of ways a writer, and pencilled and inkers express themselves in a given book. Not the least of which is at the beginning when they choose (or don’t) take part in its creation.

Gaiman and Sandman for instance, is imbued with all kinds of views on the world, social injustices. Some of the stances and choices the storyline takes are more overt than others. But one would be hard pressed to define it as anything other than left leaning. And I’d challenge anyone to find an artist that worked on that book to name an example of a creative from penciller, inker, letterer all the way through to editorial, who didn’t share that vision.

There are plenty of left leaning and right leaning comics. All to differing degrees. Some more political. Some more socially oriented, and so on.

Even the most violent or fantastical books share some form of belief system, and ties to the world. And these are imbued by the personality of the authors of those works. Be they words or pictures, or in comics, both.  

And there are those that may take a job for money and sublimate their own views for the check. I’m sure it happens.

But as I thought I made clear, and maybe didn’t, my own personal preference it towards creative teams that put their heart into the stories they are telling and not just their hands.

If an artist says something out of character with their work, say a children’s author saying in an interview they actually hate kids. Or someone who generally writes stories about stopping oppression saying something bigoted or racist. To me, that would sour me on that person’s work. If for no other reason than I’d think they were being false in their work, because their feelings are clearly different than the way they are presenting their art. 

But if say Frank Miller said something nasty about Hillary Clinton, or immigration or what have you, (he didn’t that I’m aware of) I still wouldn’t be surprised, because of the work he has put into the world. It is imbued with Frank.

And I was very unaware of these things as a kid. Very much so, and Frank is obviously a bit more complicated than I could have ever understood as a kid anyway. Doesn’t make his views in his comics any less “there” just because I didn’t pick up on them, and they aren’t the crux of his stories, just the way he goes about telling them. Some of it is put on. Some fantasy. Plenty of homage. And a fair bit of “Frank”. And I am not picking on him, as I do on occasion still check out what he is doing. He is just the easiest example, because so many are familiar. 

And possibly there is a disconnect for me, as I admittedly don’t typically do men in spandex comics anymore. I am somewhat removed from what goes on in them these days. 

Maybe that is where the apples oranges disconnect lies?

Starting to think this stuff is a bit to philosophical to type out. I hate these long posts as it takes too long for me to figure out what things I want to highlight to make a point. Succinct has absolutely never been my strong suit. 

Maybe over a drink at a show some day!

 

[Rick2you2]

23 hours ago, MagnusX said:

His name is Adrian Syaf he was fired from Marvel for his anti-christian and anti-semitic references...
famous words from him: "My career is over now"

I recall the episode, and honestly, I didn't see them as all that terrible. I also like his work and I would buy something he did if it fit my interests.

In years to come, something with anti-Semitic or anti-Christian code buried into it is likely to be worth more because of the slurs, not less.