ASM #33 Cover Different Colors? 2 2

[James J Johnson]

6 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Now I'm confused. You said:

Your posts contradict each other.

What am I missing here?

You're asking me what you're missing? I'm not a psychologist or neurologist, so unless it's laying on the floor beside you, and I was there to spot it, I'm not qualified to even guess what you're missing.

What I am qualified to do, however, is to let you know that nobody else here seems to share your confusion since I did state that certain advertisers required a contractual obligation from Marvel for a set number of copies. For a promised circulation, stated in their contract. What I don't recall is stating that these advertisers were at all interested in the printing process. The circulation was their concern. Not the printing process. I don't think anyone else aside from the printers really cared how they achieved that circulation. I could be wrong. Maybe somebody cared a great deal. But this is the first post, first time, I'm speculating, on your behalf, that somebody someplace, God only knows who or why, may have been very upset about multiple runs to achieve a certain circulation, or maybe it made their day. Who knows? I wasn't there.

[James J Johnson]

2 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

Can I ask how you know all this? I'm not in a position to contradict you (or confirm you) because I can't but I'd like to know the source of your knowledge.

Discussion with printers, one who directly worked on Silver age marvels in the 60s, and further discussion with an office guy who worked at Marvel and was involved with the ads back in the day as well. Sadly, both are probably long gone. It was years ago and they would be nearing or past Stan's age if still around.

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

You're asking me what you're missing? I'm not a psychologist or neurologist, so unless it's laying on the floor beside you, and I was there to spot it, I'm not qualified to even guess what you're missing.

What I am qualified to do, however, is to let you know that nobody else here seems to share your confusion since I did state that certain advertisers required a contractual obligation from Marvel for a set number of copies. For a promised circulation, stated in their contract. What I don't recall is stating that these advertisers were at all interested in the printing process. The circulation was their concern. Not the printing process. I don't think anyone else aside from the printers really cared how they achieved that circulation. I could be wrong. Maybe somebody cared a great deal. But this is the first post, first time, I'm speculating, on your behalf, that somebody someplace, God only knows who or why, may have been very upset about multiple runs to achieve a certain circulation, or maybe it made their day. Who knows? I wasn't there.

My confusion stems from your conflation of print runs and circulation. Except in the extremely rare case of a sellout, printing more copies for a random issue than an average issue would not have increased circulation. There were already a large number of copies not being sold to consumers.

Putting an extra 150,000 copies in a warehouse benefits nobody. And average "warehouse finds" are nowhere near 150,000 copies (of a single issue).

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Discussion with printers, one who directly worked on Silver age marvels in the 60s, and further discussion with an office guy who worked at Marvel and was involved with the ads back in the day as well. Sadly, both are probably long gone. It was years ago and they would be nearing or past Stan's age if still around.

You clearly misinterpreted whatever they said. Your posts make no sense.

[The Lions Den]

With all due respect sir, JJ's posts always make sense to me. He knows more about this subject than anyone I've ever met. 

[Jeffro.]

13 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

With all due respect sir, JJ's posts always make sense to me. He knows more about this subject than anyone I've ever met. 

I think the problem is it's not always clear who is correct and who isn't. The knowledge bandied about is anecdotal in many cases. I tend to give the person making the claim the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately there is no way to substantiate it. There have been a lot of people on this board over the years presenting stuff as fact with no ability to prove those facts. Neither you nor I can confirm or deny what James J Johnson is saying. In the absence of verifiable fact, there is only faith in the person making the claims.

Edited July 8, 2018 by Jerkfro

[The Lions Den]

1 minute ago, Jerkfro said:

I think the problem is it's not always clear who is correct and who isn't. The knowledge bandied about is anecdotal in many cases. I tend to give the person making the claim the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately there is no way to substantiate it. There have been a lot of people on this board over the years presenting stuff as fact with no ability to prove those facts. Neither you nor I can confirm or deny what James J Johnson is saying. 

I tend to believe people who actually have experience in whatever subject they're talking about. That's one of the reasons I believe JJJ. He may not be able to prove any of this, but based on my experience, what he says has the ring of truth to it. 

[Lazyboy]

33 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

With all due respect sir, JJ's posts always make sense to me. He knows more about this subject than anyone I've ever met. 

Then explain how "if an advertiser with a valued contract signed based on 600,000, that's what they printed. If 450,000 of a periodical is shipped to distributors for retail, the 150,000 that are not wind up on pallets or shelves." makes any sense. If the advertisers are paying rates based on circulation and not all copies of an issue get circulated, of what benefit is printing even more copies that don't get circulated?

His posts in this thread do not make sense. They contradict even each other, not to mention almost everything ever written about the industry.

[James J Johnson]

28 minutes ago, Jerkfro said:

I think the problem is it's not always clear who is correct and who isn't. The knowledge bandied about is anecdotal in many cases. I tend to give the person making the claim the benefit of the doubt but unfortunately there is no way to substantiate it. There have been a lot of people on this board over the years presenting stuff as fact with no ability to prove those facts. Neither you nor I can confirm or deny what James J Johnson is saying. In the absence of verifiable fact, there is only faith in the person making the claims.

It's not anecdotal info. Not from some obviously inebriated guy in some bar. Decades ago I read about how some dealers thought outside the box in an effort to unearth new collections. So I took things one step further. I devoted some time to tracking down the people who had an active hand not in the selling of comics, but people who had an active part in their production. My goals were knowledge, and hopefully finding an undiscovered collection still in the hands of some printer who maybe took home samples, or likewise, an office guy. Somebody who worked in comics. It was harder then because it involved a lot of calls, a lot of sleuthing, and the internet was still a few years away. But at any rate, I did learn a lot about the workings, one of which subject I discussed here.

I'm simply sharing what I learned, right from the horse's mouths. And from what I've observed over the years, it appears to be very valid information.

[James J Johnson]

7 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Then explain how "if an advertiser with a valued contract signed based on 600,000, that's what they printed. If 450,000 of a periodical is shipped to distributors for retail, the 150,000 that are not wind up on pallets or shelves." makes any sense. If the advertisers are paying rates based on circulation and not all copies of an issue get circulated, of what benefit is printing even more copies that don't get circulated?

His posts in this thread do not make sense. They contradict even each other, not to mention almost everything ever written about the industry.

I wasn't there. I didn't ship these. I didn't count them. I know who some of the distributors were, but I was not involved in their dispersion. What I do know is that due to contractual circulation agreements, more comics than they had buyers for were produced. These are the books that compromise the "warehouse" finds that are well documented in the hobby.

Marvel had printed the number agreed to, meeting the circulation requirement of the contract. The books were distributed to the channels, the distributors intended. Of course, each distributor has their clients, for a set number of issues. When they had more books than needed to fulfil their client's needs, they were not distributed to the retail outlet, supplying only what the retailer needed, or returned.

[Lazyboy]

Just now, James J Johnson said:

Marvel had printed the number agreed to, meeting the circulation requirement of the contract.

This is the problem with your posts. Printing is not circulation. If ASM had an average circulation of 350k, the advertisers didn't care at all whether Marvel printed 350k, 550k, or 3.5 million copies of any particular issue.

4 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

These are the books that compromise the "warehouse" finds that are well documented in the hobby.

"Warehouse finds" are virtually guaranteed to be stolen books; undistributed copies which the distributor kept without paying the publisher. They are not extra printed copies which never even had a chance of being circulated.

[The Lions Den]

4 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Then explain how "if an advertiser with a valued contract signed based on 600,000, that's what they printed. If 450,000 of a periodical is shipped to distributors for retail, the 150,000 that are not wind up on pallets or shelves." makes any sense. If the advertisers are paying rates based on circulation and not all copies of an issue get circulated, of what benefit is printing even more copies that don't get circulated?

His posts in this thread do not make sense. They contradict even each other, not to mention almost everything ever written about the industry.

A good example of this is when James Warren faced backlash for Blazing Combat magazine. Warren had to discontinue the book even though it was one of the best magazines he ever published. The distributors simply kept the books on pallets and the sales of the books went nowhere.

 

2 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

I wasn't there. I didn't ship these. I didn't count them. I know who some of the distributors were, but I was not involved in their dispersion. What I do know is that due to contractual circulation agreements, more comics than they had buyers for were produced. These are the books that compromise the "warehouse" finds that are well documented in the hobby.

Marvel had printed the number agreed to, meeting the circulation requirement of the contract. The books were distributed to the channels, the distributors intended. Of course, each distributor has their clients, for a set number of issues. When they had more books than needed to fulfil their client's needs, they were not distributed to the retail outlet, supplying only what the retailer needed, or returned.

An example of how this can happen is when a publisher puts out a book that is deemed unpatriotic. A perfect example of this is Warren Publishing's Blazing Combat magazine. The first issue sold relatively well, but a story in the second issue was labeled "unpatriotic" by the US military. Ultimately, the distributors wouldn't distribute the book, and pallets of the books just sat in warehouses. Warren still had to pay the printer, but he took a huge loss and had to cease publication after the fourth issue. This would explain why there are more copies of issues #2 - 4 than of issue #1 available today. This story is well documented in the Blazing Combat Hardcover Collection published by Fantagraphics in 2009. Actually, it's fascinating reading and I thoroughly recommend it. 

[The Lions Den]

1 hour ago, Jerkfro said:

In the absence of verifiable fact, there is only faith in the person making the claims.

Yes, you are correct. And even though I've only known him a short time, I have faith in this man.  

[James J Johnson]

7 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

I have faith in this man.  

Thank you. Your faith is well placed. Years ago, I spent a lot of time tracking down and talking to people in the printing, advertising, and other aspects of the comic biz in hope of finding that next super-pedigree find. I talked to folks that were insiders. Industry people. I figured my best chance to score big was by being attentive to what they had to say. And where anything they said may have led. Any one of them could have lied to me, led me astray, but from all else considered about what I learned from them, that wasn't the case. I was nice to these people, respectful, and it was returned in kind.

[James J Johnson]

43 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

This is the problem with your posts. Printing is not circulation. If ASM had an average circulation of 350k, the advertisers didn't care at all whether Marvel printed 350k, 550k, or 3.5 million copies of any particular issue.

"Warehouse finds" are virtually guaranteed to be stolen books; undistributed copies which the distributor kept without paying the publisher. They are not extra printed copies which never even had a chance of being circulated.

They start out as printed copies and how many wind up anywhere depends upon how many are not sent to retailers for whatever reason, stolen, lazy, or too many, more than is needed for distribution. And some advertisers wanted to be assured of a certain number of copies being printed.

Here's a few more of these you can clutch at in a failed effort to call me a liar:

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by James J Johnson

[The Lions Den]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

Thank you. Your faith is well placed. Years ago, I spent a lot of time tracking down and talking to people in the printing, advertising, and other aspects of the comic biz in hope of finding that next super-pedigree find. I talked to folks that were insiders. Industry people. I figured my best chance to score big was by being attentive to what they had to say. And where anything they said may have led. Any one of them could have lied to me, led me astray, but from all else considered about what I learned from them, that wasn't the case. I was nice to these people, respectful, and it was returned in kind.

You're very welcome! Your information always has the ring of truth, unlike some folks I've encountered in my life. The things we've discussed here in the last few weeks are based on experience and knowledge. For instance, if I told people I was the magazine specialist at CGC for 3 years, would they believe me? Perhaps not. But I can back up this claim with experience and knowledge. And you do the same thing. You are, after all, the God of Paper...and now you're also my friend. 

[James J Johnson]

3 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

You're very welcome! Your information always has the ring of truth, unlike some folks I've encountered in my life. The things we've discussed here in the last few weeks are based on experience and knowledge. For instance, if I told people I was the magazine specialist at CGC for 3 years, would they believe me? Perhaps not. But I can back up this claim with experience and knowledge. And you do the same thing. You are, after all, the God of Paper...and now you're also my friend. 

[The Lions Den]

1 minute ago, James J Johnson said:

If I may, I do have one more question which relates to what originally started this whole thread: In your opinion, do you think there was more than one printing of ASM #33? It certainly seems more common than some of the other issues, especially in high grade...

[Lazyboy]

3 minutes ago, The Lions Den said:

A good example of this is when James Warren faced backlash for Blazing Combat magazine. Warren had to discontinue the book even though it was one of the best magazines he ever published. The distributors simply kept the books on pallets and the sales of the books went nowhere.

My posts had nothing to do with copies not being properly distributed by distributors. That is a separate issue of which I am aware and was recently discussing in another thread. Your example is highly unusual and completely unrelated to this discussion.

I was asking why Marvel would print extra copies of an issue based on some kind of circulation agreement when there were already hundreds of thousands of copies per issue that never made it into circulation because of the nature of the system.

[Lazyboy]

18 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

They start out as printed copies

No kidding.

18 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

and how many wind up anywhere depends upon how many are not sent to retailers for whatever reason, stolen, lazy, or too many, more than is needed for distribution.

18 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

And some advertisers wanted to be assured of a certain number of copies being printed.

Prove that and that the number was higher than normal.

18 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

Here's a few more of these you can clutch at in a failed effort to call me a liar

I wasn't calling you a liar, I was calling you an insufficiently_thoughtful_person. Can you answer my questions with anything intelligent and relevant?

[The Lions Den]

2 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

My posts had nothing to do with copies not being properly distributed by distributors. That is a separate issue of which I am aware and was recently discussing in another thread. Your example is highly unusual and completely unrelated to this discussion.

I was asking why Marvel would print extra copies of an issue based on some kind of circulation agreement when there were already hundreds of thousands of copies per issue that never made it into circulation because of the nature of the system.

Perhaps these "highly unusual" things aren't as uncommon as we'd like to believe...