ASM #33 Cover Different Colors? 2 2

[Lazyboy]

5 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

haha   I got 5 out of 6 correct so thats pretty good!  

You know what you're talking about. Do you agree with JJJ's assertion that some issues were extremely overprinted because of some "advertising circulation agreements" (even though printing and circulation are completely different things)?

I can't understand why he would believe that or how it could possibly make sense.

Which/how many advertisers were part of these agreements? Did they buy space in one title, or many? How much were they paying for their space? Were their rates based on circulation trends? How does printing more copies increase circulation... unless copies are given away (like in your newspaper example)?

[Get Marwood & I]

11 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

You know what you're talking about. Do you agree with JJJ's assertion that some issues were extremely overprinted because of some "advertising circulation agreements" (even though printing and circulation are completely different things)?

I can't understand why he would believe that or how it could possibly make sense.

Which/how many advertisers were part of these agreements? Did they buy space in one title, or many? How much were they paying for their space? Were their rates based on circulation trends? How does printing more copies increase circulation... unless copies are given away (like in your newspaper example)?

Lazyboy, why do you think copies exist with different price fonts? Rawhide kid #17 has four different US 10c prices. Do to think this indicates multiple printings or something else? I'm interested in your opinion.

31 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

Marwood...  maybe thats the reprint I remember.  But I wasn't "hip" to EYE magazine at all back then, and I recall it as a full size comic insert.   And 46 was dated March 1967 and the EYE mag is dated 1969, so maybe Stan just loved the Shocker!  As some of the artists and writers who worked with/for Stan have speculated, since Stan created so few heroes and villains ON HIS OWN, he was partial to the ones he DID create!

It's hip to be square Aman!

As a one time prolific Spidey promo collector I'm as certain as I can be that no normal size ASM 46 giveaway exists. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong,  once or twice a century 

[Not A Clone]

Pretty interesting article from Jim Shooter...

http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-book-distribution.html/

[porcupine48]

Just Jimmers two cents..I think @Aman619 may mean it was given away,as in regular printing just inserted into the newspapers,not printed as a 'give away' comic?

I HAVE been wrong before,but that's how I understood it.

[Lazyboy]

11 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Lazyboy, why do you think copies exist with different price fonts? Rawhide kid #17 has four different US 10c prices. Do to think this indicates multiple printings or something else? I'm interested in your opinion.

Printing now is fairly consistent, though certainly not perfect. It gets worse as you go back in time. (I know this is hardly a revelation, but it is a very general explanation for oddities)

Specifically, from the things I've read, the only explanations that stand out are broken/replaced printing plates or reprints. Still, four different fonts seems ridiculous.

[Get Marwood & I]

3 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Printing now is fairly consistent, though certainly not perfect. It gets worse as you go back in time. (I know this is hardly a revelation, but it is a very general explanation for oddities)

Specifically, from the things I've read, the only explanations that stand out are broken/replaced printing plates or reprints. Still, four different fonts seems ridiculous.

Thanks. I find it odd that a pattern of multiple fonts exists for a small window of time and then stops dead. I see patterns, linking to pence copies, and therefore potentially planned changes. I think there is a reason these variations exist and don't personally buy broken plates as that reason. Somebody must know what it is! With the 9d version there are 5 RHK 17s. They ran the pence copies, switched plates and they then broke three times in one run? And each time they added a different font 10c? 

[Lazyboy]

34 minutes ago, Not A Clone said:

Pretty interesting article from Jim Shooter...

http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/comic-book-distribution.html/

Yeah, that's a good place to start for anyone not familiar with the history of distribution in the industry.

Part two gets into advertising, but it's about a different time period than is being discussed here.

[Get Marwood & I]

17 minutes ago, porcupine48 said:

Just Jimmers two cents..I think @Aman619 may mean it was given away,as in regular printing just inserted into the newspapers,not printed as a 'give away' comic?

I HAVE been wrong before,but that's how I understood it.

Oh, right. I misread it probably. 

[Lazyboy]

2 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks. I find it odd that a pattern of multiple fonts exists for a small window of time and then stops dead. I see patterns, linking to pence copies, and therefore potentially planned changes. I think there is a reason these variations exist and don't personally buy broken plates as that reason. Somebody must know what it is! With the 9d version there are 5 RHK 17s. They ran the pence copies, switched plates and they then broke three times in one run? And each time they added a different font 10c? 

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

[Get Marwood & I]

2 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Yeah, it doesn't make any sense.

Nope, it doesn't.  Shame everyone involved seems to be dead. 

[James J Johnson]

7 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

You know what you're talking about. Do you agree with JJJ's assertion that some issues were extremely overprinted because of some "advertising circulation agreements" (even though printing and circulation are completely different things)?

I can't understand why he would believe that or how it could possibly make sense.

Which/how many advertisers were part of these agreements? Did they buy space in one title, or many? How much were they paying for their space? Were their rates based on circulation trends? How does printing more copies increase circulation... unless copies are given away (like in your newspaper example)?

Certain advertisers wanted their ad to be printed in a certain amount of copies. Very easy to understand.

Advertiser: "How many copies are currently published"?

Marvel: "500,000".

Advertiser: "Not enough. I can get my ad in over 2 million publications for X amount of dollars. I'll pay $_______ for my ad to appear in 1,000,000 publications for the next 2 months:

Marvel: "We can accommodate you. Let's put that in writing"

Do you actually think that the lion share of Marvel's profits came from producing 10 and 12 cent comics? The real money was in selling the ads. The comics were simply the vehicles to get the ads into the public's hands.

Now, this isn't my testimony. I wasn't there. I didn't sell ad space for Marvel. I didn't order the printing supplies. I didn't order the printing or send them out to distributors or wherever.

My info is from people who were there and were involved. Period. 

But I'm going to see if any of these people are still alive and if I can get in touch with them, invite them here to answer to you.

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by James J Johnson

[Lazyboy]

1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

Certain advertisers wanted their ad to be printed in a certain amount of copies. Very easy to understand.

Advertiser: "How many copies are currently published"?

That's not the question they asked. They asked "What's the current circulation?"

Quote

Marvel: "500,000".

Advertiser: "Not enough. I can get my ad in over 2 million publications for X amount of dollars. I'll pay $_______ for my ad to appear in 1,000,000 publications for the next 2 months:

Marvel: "We can accommodate you. Let's put that in writing"

Again, advertisers aren't going to pay more for more copies to be printed. They pay based on circulation and aren't dumb enough to think that simply printing more copies will increase circulation.

Ad rates have always been based on circulation. Advertisers may have been able to negotiate those rates, but that's how they were set.

Advertisers got more circulation in a month by buying space in multiple titles (which may have been part of the agreement to begin with). Look at the ads in the monthly output from a comic publisher. Notice anything?

Quote

Do you actually think that the lion share of Marvel's profits came from producing 10 and 12 cent comics? The real money was in selling the ads. The comics were simply the vehicles to get the ads into the public's hands.

You think there was "real money" in selling ad space in comics? There may have been more money (relative to everything else) there in the Silver Age, but comics (especially Marvel) didn't have the circulation or demographics to get the big ad money. They also had far less ad space than the average magazine, which was a vehicle to deliver ads.

Quote

Now, this isn't my testimony. I wasn't there. I didn't sell ad space for Marvel. I didn't order the printing supplies. I didn't order the printing or send them out to distributors or wherever.

My info is from people who were there and were involved. Period. 

But I'm going to see if any of these people are still alive and if I can get in touch with them, invite them here so you can interrogate them..

If you find them, tell them how you interpreted what they said so they can correct you.

Edited July 13, 2018 by Lazyboy

[Aman619]

10 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

Lazyboy, why do you think copies exist with different price fonts? Rawhide kid #17 has four different US 10c prices. Do to think this indicates multiple printings or something else? I'm interested in your opinion.

It's hip to be square Aman!

As a one time prolific Spidey promo collector I'm as certain as I can be that no normal size ASM 46 giveaway exists. But I'm always happy to be proven wrong,  once or twice a century 

Marwood, I think your discoveries related to the pence copies has proved multiple pressings with plate changes.  I’d lean toward multiple scheduled press runs all in the same day.  Marvel would have received the pence orders, and planned the runs and told the printer how many of each they needed.  The printer would just bang em out with short breaks to swap out the black plate and fire up the presses again.  Very little make ready to delay.  So they weren’t like a second printing by demand etc as we see them now.  But these Marvel “error” books happened years later after marvel ceased printing foreign books for their overseas partner distribs..

I can’t recall any mid Silver Age book that was reprinted, or warranted it. But JJ has spoken with those who were involved, so I’m thinking he has some inside info on the subject.  

and yes I am remembering a full sized comic inserted whole into the newspapers, not a specially produced giveaway. Newspapers are larger than magazines — much larger back then — so a 7x10” comicbooks posed no problem as an insert.  It would have been cheaper too for Marvel, once they committed to inserting a giveaway comic to just overprint the regular comic, as opposed to creating a new shape etc like the Eye giveaway. 

For over fifty years now (wow) I have always thought of the newspaper insert whenever I see the Shocker cover, but, in fairness, memory. being fungible over time, I could be misremembering this.  Anybody else recall? 

[Aman619]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

That's not the question they asked. They asked "What's the current circulation?"

Again, advertisers aren't going to pay more for more copies to be printed. They pay based on circulation and aren't dumb enough to think that simply printing more copies will increase circulation.

Ad rates have always been based on circulation. Advertisers may have been able to negotiate those rates, but that's how they were set.

Advertisers got more circulation in a month by buying space in multiple titles (which may have been part of the agreement to begin with). Look at the ads in the monthly output from a comic publisher. Notice anything?

You think there was "real money" in selling ad space in comics? There may have been more money (relative to everything else) there in the Silver Age, but comics (especially Marvel) didn't have the circulation or demographics to get the big ad money. They also had far less ad space than the average magazine, which was a vehicle to deliver ads.

If you find them, tell them how you interpreted what they said so they can correct you.

Good points.  While yeah the advertiser might have said we only buy in lots of a million, so print more! Clearly he’d be a fool if he thought that would lead to more sales and eyeballs for his ads.

but there are other reasons Marvel or DC might overprint an issue ... wish we have more info how many and why.

 

Edited July 13, 2018 by Aman619

[Lazyboy]

3 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

but there are other reasons Marvel or DC might overprint an issue ... wish we have more info how many and why.

Of course. The publishers print whatever they want to for whatever reasons they have. Some degree of overprinting has always been a reality in publishing. But they aren't going to double or triple a print run unless there's some kind of benefit to them.

I also wish we had much more info on... well, everything the publishers have done. More specific printing and distribution numbers, explanations for the unusual things that have been done, etc.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

I also wish we had much more info on... well, everything the publishers have done. More specific printing and distribution numbers, explanations for the unusual things that have been done, etc

Me too. I've written to many industry figures and always draw a blank. Steve Ditko, bless his soul, advised me by letter that it was all inconsequential. So many reasons to love that man 

[Get Marwood & I]

1 hour ago, Aman619 said:

Marwood, I think your discoveries related to the pence copies has proved multiple pressings with plate changes.  I’d lean toward multiple scheduled press runs all in the same day.  

That makes the most sense I guess. I'll post some more soon about the patterns I'm seeing across the 20 titles. They're not absolute, but do seem to tell a story of sorts.

The more we post about it, the more chance someone who knows the history will spot it and dive in 

[James J Johnson]

12 hours ago, Lazyboy said:

You think there was "real money" in selling ad space in comics? There may have been more money (relative to everything else) there in the Silver Age, but comics (especially Marvel) didn't have the circulation or demographics to get the big ad money. They also had far less ad space than the average magazine, which was a vehicle to deliver ads.

If you find them, tell them how you interpreted what they said so they can correct you.

What are you talking about? Full back cover ads? For toys and games of major manufacturers? You really think there was no money in the ads? That it wasn't a major advertising concern?  That the manufacturers didn't care how many were printed with their ads?  Mattel, Aurora, Schwinn, etc., these were major toy and game manufacturers trying to reach as many kids as they could. The companies buying full back covers were big business alone, in the day most of the bigger toy, game, bike, etc. manufacturers occupied that full back cover. 

And I don't need correction. I know what I heard, and I stand by it, despite your obsessive compulsive protestations.

[Aman619]

Sure the comics ads were a nice source of income for DC and Marvel.  And they always wished they could get a lot MORE ads. As periodicals, no reason that couldn’t add 8 more pages (a signature) just of ads... IF only there was enough demand.  There’s no set policy about editorial to ad page counts.  You print what you got.

id think the toy manufacturers probably had the upper hand in buying the ads, not the comics publishers, and were satisfied with what they received for the rates they paid.  Enough to keep buying them all those years, 

comics being marketed solely to kids in the sixties limited the pool of brand advertisers too.  No cars, cigarettes, cosmetics, etc where the real money is at.

[James J Johnson]

16 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

No cars, cigarettes, cosmetics, etc where the real money is at.

A lot of money in kids' toys in the 60s, especially bicycles. Kids then didn't have computers, they actually ventured outdoors to do what? Ride bikes, whack, dribble, or kick a ball, board games, or action adventure toys, toy guns, etc., and I would think that the major toy manufacturers sold scads of product. Every kid must have had something made by AMF, Rawlings, Hasbro, Mattel, Aurora, Marx, Parker Brothers, etc., etc, among all the ads you always see on the back of comics. It was the equivalent of Marlboro, but for kids.

These toys were expensive too, relatively speaking. I've bought toys from the 60s in original packaging. I had a Johnny 7 gun with the original store sticker on it and it was the cost of 3 cartons of cigarettes back then, that's 60 packs! $10 for a toy in the 60s was a huge amount of money considering that minimum wage was about a buck and a half and gas was what? About 35 cents per gallon when that toy cost $10?

Edited July 13, 2018 by James J Johnson