Official "I love Marvel" Thread.

[Kevin Boyd]

1. They actually have books that actually sell as opposed to books that should sell in theory.

2. They no longer rely on company crossovers to spark sales.

3. They have fantastic writers producing some of the best super-hero comics in the field (Bendis, Straczinski, Morrison, Johns, Priest).

4. They have the best trade paperback/hardcover program in the industry. With the return of the masterworks this spring there is no longer any doubt of this.

5. They love to stir up controversy and get fans who are stuck in a rut mad at them.

6. They have the most reader friendly line of superhero comics on the market (the Ultimate line).

7. They can actually (finally) get decent movies made about their characters as opposed to other companies who allow the executives to overproduce their characters into oblivion.

8. They are actually making some attempt to reach beyond the same group of tired whiny fanboys that sit around complaining about how their precious worlds are being shaken up.

9. They make mistakes and own up to them.

10. They aren't DC.

 

Kev

[ArAich]

10. They aren't DC.

 

So this is a "I hate DC" thread in disguise....

[chrisco37]

I love Old Marvel, but as far as now, DC (Vertigo, in particular) consistently crushes Marvel for quality of books.

 

Nothing Marvel puts out can hold a candle to 100 Bullets or Transmetropolitan (which, BTW, all come out in trade prettty quickly).

 

That being said, I'm real excited Marvel is re-releasing the Masterworks series. Dunno, guess it's just a matter of taste.

 

Chris

[Kevin Boyd]

Nope. But DC books these days, with a few notable exceptions, are pretty dull reads.

 

The word coasting comes to mind.

 

Frankly, DC would be a much better company if they:

 

(a) had a completely different editorial director and staff

 

(b) weren't blindly following the dictates of a huge corporation.

 

Kev

[Kevin Boyd]

When I look over my monthly order form the number of Marvels I order is triple the number of DC titles.

 

I do like the following DC titles: Batman, Hawkman, Green Arrow, JSA, Flash, Y-The Last Man, the ABC line and Planetary. I appreciate Fables and 100 Bullets.

 

However, Marvel has the Ultimate line, the Spider-Man books, Avengers, Daredevil, Captain America, Alias, Punisher, Incredible Hulk, MU: The End, Fantastic Four, Morrison's New X-Men, Exiles, X-Statix, the Loeb/Sale annual mini-series.

 

I get tired of these stupid "I hate Marvel" threads> Mostly because they are making some effort to shake up the industry rather than coast along, which is pretty much all that DC does.

 

Despite making many bone-headed mistakes over the last couple of years, Marvel has done more for the new comic industry than any other company publishing new comics.

 

Kev

[dam60]

Here are my replies:

 

1. They actually have books that actually sell as opposed to books that should sell in theory.

Funny, I would say that Batman has been the best selling title since Jim Lee came aboard - didn't 608 also completely sell out of a second printing with a variant cover. DC has the characters that made comics and many of the top creators want their shot at these idols.

 

2. They no longer rely on company crossovers to spark sales.

Ultimate War anyone?

 

3. They have fantastic writers producing some of the best super-hero comics in the field (Bendis, Straczinski, Morrison, Johns, Priest).

Vertigo and ABC aside, DC can attract some talent - look at Loeb on Batman

 

4. They have the best trade paperback/hardcover program in the industry. With the return of the masterworks this spring there is no longer any doubt of this.

Huh? What about lame things such as Marvel Musthaves?

 

5. They love to stir up controversy and get fans who are stuck in a rut mad at them.

Two wards - Rawhide Kid

 

6. They have the most reader friendly line of superhero comics on the market (the Ultimate line).

Here I can't say that DC is a winner as it seems that no one does "Done in One" stories anymore. Only with the return of DIOs, can a publisher be "reader friendly"

 

7. They can actually (finally) get decent movies made about their characters as opposed to other companies who allow the executives to overproduce their characters into oblivion.

Let's see about that - how many follow ups to Spiderman will be made?

 

8. They are actually making some attempt to reach beyond the same group of tired whiny fanboys that sit around complaining about how their precious worlds are being shaken up.

Vertigo? ABC?

 

9. They make mistakes and own up to them.

What about their distribution policies?

 

10. They aren't DC.

They aren't Marvel

 

[dam60]

I just realized that my post must look pretty funny with my sig line. Ha!

 

All in good fun,

 

DAM

[Kevin Boyd]

1. Yoda says: Batman sales do not an entire line redeem!

 

2. Ultimate War was not a company wide crossover! Two titles intersected (one of which didn't even get published during that time period.

 

Let's face it, it was no "Our Worlds At War" or "Joker's Last Laugh" or "Bruce Wayne: Murdering Fugitive"

 

3. I don't deny that DC has talent writing for them. When Alan Moore retires again in November they are going to be in trouble. And a lot of DC's best writers are already writing for Marvel.

 

4. Marvel Must Haves aren't tpbs. They are fast reprints a la the Y and Batman double shots. A quick way to get the fans the issues they want to read.

 

5. The Rawhide Kid would love two wards. He'd have one up on Batman.

 

6. Most DC super-hero books are nearly as continuity heavy as the X-Men line used to be.

 

7. As many as they can.

 

8. How are Vertigo and ABC reaching out to new readers beyond the same fans that already shop at comic shops?

 

9. I don't have any problem with their current distribution system. It helps to create demand for titles, and puts the onus on the store ordering their books to actually talk with their customers about the product they sell rather than blindly ordering the same five copies of Green Lantern that they have always ordered and then scrambling to reorder more if they sell out and get asked for the issue by their customers.

 

10. Marvel isn't Marvel?

 

Kev

[Mushroom]

I am with Dam60. "DC isn't Marvel" and thank god for that.

 

Great sig line. Bought some X-O Man of War yesterday.

[murph0]

I'll just say that Marvel demolishes DC in every way IMO and leave it at that. :\

 

Brian

[dam60]

Slow day at work today, so here goes:

 

1. Yoda says: Batman sales do not an entire line redeem!

 

While mighty Yoda is always right, just in terms of total titles published, Marvel should beat DC because they put out so much more stuff

 

2. Ultimate War was not a company wide crossover! Two titles intersected (one of which didn't even get published during that time period.

 

Okay, then is it better to have a company wide crossover or titles while put out by the same publisher, in the same month have absolutely nothing to do with each other? Example being Ultimate X-Men being different from "New" X-Men and "Uncanny" X-Men

 

3. I don't deny that DC has talent writing for them. When Alan Moore retires again in November they are going to be in trouble. And a lot of DC's best writers are already writing for Marvel.

 

Could you say that a lot of Marvel's best writers are writing for DC?

 

4. Marvel Must Haves aren't tpbs. They are fast reprints a la the Y and Batman double shots. A quick way to get the fans the issues they want to read.

 

Okay, good point. I don't know enough about the DC TPB system vs Marvel to really comment then, except to say that I have never had a real problem getting one from either publisher.

 

5. The Rawhide Kid would love two wards. He'd have one up on Batman.

ROFL!!!!

 

6. Most DC super-hero books are nearly as continuity heavy as the X-Men line used to be.

Personally, I LOVE the continuity. Also, one of the main reasons that I am colelcting all the Batman books is that (1) they are out there (2) I am getting a slice of American through Batman from 1940- Marvel can't say that. Not even with their Timely characters

 

7. As many as they can.

If Marvel puts out as many crappy sequels to Spidey, etc as they can then they will just be copying the superior comic book company DC! Plus for their time, I would say that Superman 1 and Batman 1 were really innovative and have to this day made a lasting impression on Americana

 

8. How are Vertigo and ABC reaching out to new readers beyond the same fans that already shop at comic shops?

That's exactly it - they are getting new people into comic shops with their adult focused books

 

9. I don't have any problem with their current distribution system. It helps to create demand for titles, and puts the onus on the store ordering their books to actually talk with their customers about the product they sell rather than blindly ordering the same five copies of Green Lantern that they have always ordered and then scrambling to reorder more if they sell out and get asked for the issue by their customers.

 

I think that's a little harsh regarding "puts the onus on the store ordering their books to actually talk with their customers about the product they sell" Personally I have my "pull" comics, and then I have the impulse comics. I think a lot of people are like me in that respect. With the limited print runs Marvel is just hurting their readers.

 

10. Marvel isn't Marvel?

Well, you got me there. I meant to say Marvel isn't DC, but since I didn't let me go off on a tirade that Marvel of today is a Marvel that has Stan Lee himself suing the company. This "Marvel" that we are left with is a mere shadow of what is was and is in its death throws. Plus, even if Sony buys Marvel, DC is owned by AOL Time Warner. That's a pretty big company to do battle with and for the movie ideas alone I think that DC will be around for a while. I wonder if AOL could buy Marvel too . . . hmmmmmmmmmm . . .

 

DAM

[dam60]

X-O is my personal favorite!!! Great books, I hope you like them!

 

Best,

 

DAM

[Kevin Boyd]

1. And they do.

 

2. Company crossovers should mean more than just quick cash grabs. When I had lunch with Phil Jimenez on Saturday he pretty much said that the crossover issues of regular issues outsell the regular issues, even on the titles which are currently selling well which is how they can justify fudging up and completely interfering with that title's creative team's plans and storylines.

 

Ultimate War was also written by the same writer of both the Ultimates and Ultimate X-Men and it was his idea to do it.

 

Having two lines gives people a choice. Read one or the other or both. Personally, I read Morrison's X-Men in TPB, buy Ultimate X-Men for a friend and read it before I give it to him and pick up the eventual hardcover. Did I think it was a good idea (Ultimate X-Men)? Of course not. But it's a great way to introduce new readers to the X-Men.

 

3. Not really, because Marvel is very good about recognizing the DC writers that are doing a good job and then swaying them to come over to the dark side.

 

6. A slice of American what? Cheese? Pop culture? Loeb and Lee's Batman is very entertaining, but they are the only thing keeping me there. If they go, I go.

 

7. Except that they can't seem to get another Batman or Superman movie made. And Spidey 2 doesn't sound cheesy to me. X-Men 2 looks great, Blade 3 might be decent if the same writer is involved, and the Hulk is getting decent word of mouth.

 

IMO THE 10 BEST COMIC BOOK MOVIES TO DATE (in order):

 

SUPERMAN THE MOVIE

SPIDER-MAN

BATMAN THE MOVIE (1966)

THE ROCKETEER

GHOST WORLD

ROAD TO PERDITION

X-MEN

SUPERMAN II

BATMAN (1989)

BATMAN RETURNS

 

Honorable mentions: Blade 1&2, The Shadow

 

8. How? I don't see it. DC aims their books at the same group of fans that frequent shops. I don't see Tom Strong anywhere in the "real" world. Hopefully more people will be exposed to the excellent League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. In the past Vertigo had Sandman and Preacher, but now? Y? Fables? 100 Bullets? I don't see people who don't read comics running into my friend's store to buy copies. At least not until Entertainment Weekly promotes them.

 

9. I'm not sure how it does when Marvel has a TPB out 5 minutes after the series or storyline ends. Most stores were sleep walking thru their order before Marvel said no more overprinting.

 

10. Actually Stan sued for his share of the profits from the Spider-Man movie. He was on Nightline defending the Rawhide Kid about two seconds after he filed suit. It's pretty common for movie studios to drag their feet on payments. And now we see Stan in the same position as Marv Wolfman over Blade. He created the characters on work for hire. Of course they aren't going to give him money as the co-creator unless the courts force the company to do it. I'm sure the editorial staff would love to give Stan millions of dollars, but it's the lawyers and the shareholders who are against it. Siegel and Shuster had to do the same thing with DC.

 

Kev

[COI]

 

Dam, Shroom and Chrisco......

 

Do DC fans also have trouble reading? Please RE-READ the title and post here :

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=comicgen&Number=129441&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=31&fpart=1#Post129530

 

and might I add....

 

"NUFF SAID"......."MAKE MINE MARVEL"........CAN I GET A "NO PRIZE"...."EXCELSIOR"!!!!

 

[Mushroom]

Yes we can't read. That is why DC artwork has to be better. Plus if we posted there then it wouldn't be as much fun.

[LordRahl]

Just an opinion on the Marvel vs DC movie thing. While noone knows what the quality of the Spidey sequels will be it's hard to imagine they would be as god-awful as the Batman and Superman sequels. As someone that follows the movie industry closely, genre movies(i.e. superhero) are very cyclical. Marvel is being very smart putting out the amount of stuff they are right now. Most of it being of good quality, even DD was decent. DC is missing the boat big time. By the time they get around to getting either Batman or Superman out of production hell you'll be seeing a heavy decline in the superhero movie box office grosses.

[COI]

Dam, you'll like this one....

 

Here's an excerpt from a past Batman story.........issue #66........courtesy of a past auction. This has no relevance to the overall argument, but it's pretty damn funny. A superb historical example of the quality put out by DC. No words have been altered:

 

 

"The Joker readies a special boner just for Batman"

"Other Famous All-Time Boners!"

Joker: "So! Laugh at my BONER, will they?! I'LL SHOW THEM! I'LL SHOW THEM HOW MANY BONERS THE JOKER CAN MAKE! Gotham City will rue the day it mentioned the word BONER!"

"See this picture? It shows a big boner of modern vintage."

"It was quite a BONER!"

"Stung By His Boner"

Robin to Batman: "What does he mean, Bruce? How can he force you into a boner?" Batman's answer: "I don't know. But whatever it is, it isn't GOOD, that's for sure!"

"Let's continue our study of the great boners of all time..."

Commissioner Gordon: "I'm worried about the boner he's readying for YOU Batman!"

 

[dam60]

Round three, ding ding!

 

1. And they do.

Okay, it looks like we have some resolution with that

 

Having two lines gives people a choice. Read one or the other or both. Personally, I read Morrison's X-Men in TPB, buy Ultimate X-Men for a friend and read it before I give it to him and pick up the eventual hardcover. Did I think it was a good idea (Ultimate X-Men)? Of course not. But it's a great way to introduce new readers to the X-Men.

Here, I am going to stick to my original party line that the best way to inroduce new readers to the hobby is with done in ones. Take the USM line, which I do buy and read. I can't understand one damn thing in a single issue but the TPBs are phenomenal. I am not saying that DC does teh DOIs, but that's where the industry needs to gravitate to for it to work.

 

3. Not really, because Marvel is very good about recognizing the DC writers that are doing a good job and then swaying them to come over to the dark side.

Ah, so you admit that DC writers are doing a good job!

 

6. A slice of American what? Cheese? Pop culture? Loeb and Lee's Batman is very entertaining, but they are the only thing keeping me there. If they go, I go.

Sure

 

7. Except that they can't seem to get another Batman or Superman movie made. And Spidey 2 doesn't sound cheesy to me. X-Men 2 looks great, Blade 3 might be decent if the same writer is involved, and the Hulk is getting decent word of mouth.

Personally, I think Knightfall would make a great movie. Maybe a JLA.

 

[/i]IMO THE 10 BEST COMIC BOOK MOVIES TO DATE (in order):

 

SUPERMAN THE MOVIE

SPIDER-MAN

BATMAN THE MOVIE (1966)

THE ROCKETEER

GHOST WORLD

ROAD TO PERDITION

X-MEN

SUPERMAN II

BATMAN (1989)

BATMAN RETURNS[/i]

 

I would go with:

Superman

Batman 1989

Spider-Man

Batman Returns

Superman 2

Batman 1966

The Rocketeer

Blade

X-Men (just did not like this one at all)

 

I didn't see a lot of those other ones.

 

8. How? I don't see it. DC aims their books at the same group of fans that frequent shops. I don't see Tom Strong anywhere in the "real" world. Hopefully more people will be exposed to the excellent League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. In the past Vertigo had Sandman and Preacher, but now? Y? Fables? 100 Bullets? I don't see people who don't read comics running into my friend's store to buy copies. At least not until Entertainment Weekly promotes them.

I don't know enough about this to continue. I don't know the demographics of the new comers of the industry to really talk about what brings them there, although it would be my hunch that it would be more to pop culture like movies than anything else

 

9. I'm not sure how it does when Marvel has a TPB out 5 minutes after the series or storyline ends. Most stores were sleep walking thru their order before Marvel said no more overprinting.

The thing about no more overprinting is that you screw readers who want to get a copy buy got sold out and don't want to have to pay $30 for an Origin #1 but have no other alternative until the marvel must have or the tpb

 

Kev, very intelligent posts - I have enjoyed our debate.

 

Best,

 

DAM

[dam60]

AK - I had read that from the original auction too! You just have to love those classic DCs!!

 

DAM

[Kevin Boyd]

1. Marvel rules overall dollar values earned and overall units shipped.

 

2. Most new readers are going to be exposed to Ultimate Spider-Man thru the TPBs. Regular issues are really for the few of us that actually venture into comic shops on a regular basis.

 

3. I never said that they weren't. As Andrew pointed out, this is the I love Marvel thread, not the I hate DC thread. I love Marvel... I like DC.

 

7. Knightfall (shudder). I'd rather see The Last Angel GN or the Ra's Al Ghul storyline. Batman is a detective, let's see him in a noir-ish detective adventure movie for once instead of a campy spectacle.

 

8. My general problem with DC is that they don't take steps to promote their books outside of the comic shops. Occasionally they get a good review in Entertainment Weekly. Their TV shows have nothing to do with the comics they were based on. They can't get a movie made for the life of them and the only mainstream press they got in the last year or more (aside from the failure to get their movies made) is that Wonder Woman cut her hair and looks like "Kelly Osborne".

 

9. Perhaps. But that helps your local comic guy who now has people coming in off the street looking for the book that the customer could have pre-ordered in the first place AND that the store owner should have ordered in anticipation of demand. I mean COME ON it was the Origin of Wolverine for god's sake... how could retailers NOT have anticipated demand from the fans. A gay Rawhide Kid isn't going to be heavily ordered because people don't care about the Rawhide Kid, gay or not, but Wolverine's bloody Origin!

 

Me too.

 

Kev