B level art 1 1

[J.Sid]

1 hour ago, GreatEscape said:

Great discussion, very insightful!

I came over from comics where condition-based tiering grew to be somewhat obsessive since the advent of CGC grading. I'd see collectors discussing subtle differences between 7.5 and 8.0 and seemingly forget to appreciate they are holding a 75-year-old copy of Batman #1.  Naturally, every hobby has certain metrics to separate good, great and truly exceptional.  Thankfully, the OA hobby is much less focused on condition issues, so we can introduce a tiering structure (A,B,C) to distinguish quality.  I'm all for it as tiering helps explain pricing/value differences among similar pieces (ie, same artist, title, character, arc or even issue).

 Agree that A,B,C tiering is subjective as every collector has personal sense of quality and a different set of priorities.  I have a practical interpretation of quality given my collecting focus is obtaining single representative pieces by artist and title/character.  My own tiering structure is as follows:

 A - "One and done" piece - Checks all the boxes AND resonates with me personally (= nostalgia and/or aesthetics), no desire to upgrade, no need to consider other examples that come to market/auction.  It doesn't have to be the best, probably in Top 5% of examples.  Viewed as permanent collection.   Example:  Byrne X-men page, strong team shot and/or Wolverine in-costume, claws slashing

 B - "Makes the grade" - Checks most boxes and my personal collecting criteria but open to upgrade to A-level example (via trade or subsequent sale).   Solid trade chip...Top 25-30% of examples.   Ex: Byrne X-men page, partial team panel with Wolverine out of costume

C - "Fits the bill" piece...Checks a few boxes but leaves a lot to be desired. Not long-term hold but can enjoy for several years.  Middle 30-70% of examples but can trade towards A-level piece in lower category (ie, Byrne Iron Fist or Kubert X-Men page).   Ex: Byrne X-men page with 2 heroes, no Wolverine.

 D - "Fills the hole" piece - Checks 1-2 boxes but not much else...a temporary placeholder until another example is found.  I generally avoid D-level pieces unless scarcity or necessity (offered in trade or compelling value) dictate otherwise.    Ex: Byrne X-Men page with 1 hero or villain, out of action.

This is my .  Your mileage will vary.  

....a good start. So where does the KJp1 fall on this scale? Give it a C? D? (there are a lot of great pages in that book, and there's a big drop-off between those and the P1 IMO)

Edited August 9, 2018 by J.Sid

[Stefanomjr]

On 8/6/2018 at 5:12 PM, Panelfan1 said:

The recent thread regarding heritage auctions brought up the idea of A level vs B level art and how A level just soared past B level art.

It would be great for any here that have knowledge or opinions on the subject to share some examples of what they consider B or C level art.

That could be a combination of artist and title. 

As a starting point -(that is one example only)  feel free to argue against this - would folks agree that regardless of artist - all amazing Spider-Man art would be A art, while say marvel team-up is only B or C art depending on the artist? 

Are there other titles that come to mind? Perhaps A vs B could also be within the same series depending on the stories in a long running title? But in general are there title that are without a doubt B list.  I am thing as an example here - guardian of the galaxy - the movie was a hit - but the comic was never a huge hit. And while there was a bit more interest in the art after the movies - it's still all B run material?

Again - my hope in starting this thread is to identify what (in your opinions) is B list art.  I think many of us instinctively know what is A art -but with rising prices it's become harder to define what is B art.

 

I read some of these threads and by the time I get to the 4th page I forget what the original comment/question was.

I don't believe ALL ASM art is A art. That places too much importance on the character and not enough on the artist and period. I think you can see A art come out of a book like Marvel Team-Up. A quick CAF search and this came up -  http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1478312

With that being said, I think B and C level talent can command more money for their pages when they work on A-list characters like Batman. 

I think the line between A and B has to do with craft AND nostalgia - discussed in a separate thread (also a great read) 

my 2¢

[Catwoman_Fan]

On 8/9/2018 at 12:35 PM, batman_fan said:

Myself, I think the work is mediocre and would put it in the C category. I think the same would be true for many items. 

I see the KJ pg as C , definiately a place holder, just a minor example page. With no good images of Batman or Joker (even fake Joker), can’t see it as a B. I figure the book has 1-4 A pages (mileage may vary).  

[PhilipB2k17]

I had a chance to buy this page recently. This is by Arvell Jones, and the question I have is: what level art is this? 

Its obviously got a great image that hits a lot of collector sweet spots. But Arvell is not a highly collected artist and it’s from a Cap annual that is not necessarily in demand. Although a splash (which I consider to be inferior to this page) from this same Issue sold for 0ver $1100 recently at Heritage. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[Panelfan1]

20 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I had a chance to buy this page recently. This is by Arvell Jones, and the question I have is: what level art is this? 

Its obviously got a great image that hits a lot of collector sweet spots. But Arvell is not a highly collected artist and it’s from a Cap annual that is not necessarily in demand. Although a splash (which I consider to be inferior to this page) from this same Issue sold for 0ver $1100 recently at Heritage. 

This is exactly the question I had in mind when starting this thread. A real Great action page from a B or C title by a solid but not 'famous' artist.  A lot of art like this has been moving on up in value lately.  In my book it's A material but from a B creator/title therefore B level art.  If it were the same artist on the same book but a talking page with no heroes- it would be C or d level. This is all just guessing. What do others think?

Edited August 12, 2018 by Panelfan1

[PhilipB2k17]

2 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

This is exactly the question I had in mind when starting this thread. A real Great action page from a B or C title by a solid but not 'famous' artist.  A lot of art like this has been moving on up in value lately.  In my book it's A material but from a B creator/title therefore B level art.  If it were the same artist on the same book but a talking page with no heroes- it would be C or d level. This is all just guessing. What do others think?

I regret not buying this page when I had the chance. It was literally very recent. The price quoted was a little more than I wanted to pay, and I am saving up for a Con next weekend. But an hour after I left the Small Con where this was, I regretted it. But I chalk this up to disciplining myself. 

The price quoted to me was probably about 25-30% more than what Ai mebtally pegged the value of the piece at. But I did not do a good HA search yet (bad internet connection) so did not see that a splash from the same ssue sold for much more than what I was quoted. I think this page is ~better~ than that Splash. 

I might get a second chance as the person who has it might be at another con and I can try again. It’s not one of their “display” pages. So who knows if it will sell by then. 

Edited August 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[Timely]

Not aimed towards anyone, but if I had just bought a piece of art that I felt was an "A" level piece and others chimed in saying they felt it was "B" or even "C" level art that would really leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I may even be more upset if I was selling a piece of art and others were downplaying it, especially if they have no interest in buying it.

If I ask for opinions then the floor is open to any type of criticism. I only give positive feedback on things I like, if I do not like the art, I do not comment on it.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Timely

[PhilipB2k17]

7 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

This is exactly the question I had in mind when starting this thread. A real Great action page from a B or C title by a solid but not 'famous' artist.  A lot of art like this has been moving on up in value lately.  In my book it's A material but from a B creator/title therefore B level art.  If it were the same artist on the same book but a talking page with no heroes- it would be C or d level. This is all just guessing. What do others think?

Following up: Can a truly great image set a floor on the “Level” of a piece? Meaning, can it be so great that regardless of artist or story or issue, it’s a B? Or does it have to also be if a great character?

The Cap page above would not be rated the same if it was some random 90’s indie character punching some random villain. It’s great because it’s Cap battling Red Skull in a mainline Marvel title. Right? 

Edited August 12, 2018 by PhilipB2k17

[PhilipB2k17]

5 minutes ago, Timely said:

Not aimed towards anyone, but if I had just bought a piece if art that I felt was an "A" level piece and others chimed in saying they felt it was "B" or even "C" level art that would really leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I may even be more upset if I was selling a piece of art and others were downplaying it, especially if they have no interest in buying it.

If I ask for opinions then the floor is open to any type of criticism. I only give positive feedback on things I like, if I do not like the art, I do not comment on it.

I think if you ask for opinions, then getting honest responses should be expected. Nobody’s taste in art is exactly the same. So you have to take it with a grain of salt. 

[BCarter27]

3 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I had a chance to buy this page recently. This is by Arvell Jones, and the question I have is: what level art is this?

 

As per my personal definitions, I'd call it a B.

Spoiler

Quote

I tend to do it by book...

A -- the cover with a strong costume image. Or a DPS or splash with the same.

B -- a strong costume action paneled page

C -- costume side-shots or back shots or small costume panels

D -- "character" pages (as in character actor), talking heads, out-of-costume pages. 

 

 

[Nexus]

7 minutes ago, Timely said:

Not aimed towards anyone, but if I had just bought a piece if art that I felt was an "A" level piece and others chimed in saying they felt it was "B" or even "C" level art that would really leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I may even be more upset if I was selling a piece of art and others were downplaying it, especially if they have no interest in buying it.

If I ask for opinions then the floor is open to any type of criticism. I only give positive feedback on things I like, if I do not like the art, I do not comment on it.

Just some general thoughts, feel free to take/leave...

If you bought a piece you considered "A", but others considered "B", then you can 1. try to understand why there is this difference of opinion, 2. recalibrate your eye (especially if one is a new collector, and others have been around a while), and/or 3. be happy with what you got, be happy with your assessment, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

It also bears repeating: There is nothing WRONG with B (or even C) examples. The vast majority of OA is B/C. I own plenty of art that doesn't contain the typical elements that others would consider A, but the art is interesting to ME, and so I enjoy it. Yes, I do consider this KJ page to be a B example...in the context of all KJ pages. It's still a GREAT piece of art, and if I didn't already have an example, I'd love to have it in my collection. I just wouldn't pay $120K for it. If the buyer was willing to pay whatever it took in order to secure an example (an opportunity to acquire a KJ page is rare), then mission accomplished. But if he paid what he paid because he considered the page to be an A example, then the advice above applies.

[Panelfan1]

2 hours ago, Timely said:

Not aimed towards anyone, but if I had just bought a piece of art that I felt was an "A" level piece and others chimed in saying they felt it was "B" or even "C" level art that would really leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I may even be more upset if I was selling a piece of art and others were downplaying it, especially if they have no interest in buying it.

If I ask for opinions then the floor is open to any type of criticism. I only give positive feedback on things I like, if I do not like the art, I do not comment on it.

Most of what I like is B or C material (in so far as characters and artists  are concerned). I appreciate some A stuff - but budget and nostalgia being what it is - I love a lot of B comics and C characters.  If others chime in and pointthat out about my collection - It's not a problem.  Just to illustrate what I am saying - I enjoy : Groo, Madman, firestorm, Blue Beetle, Deadman, Cloak and Dagger, etc.. just as much or more than say Batman. Or titles such as worlds finest, brave and the bold, marvel team-up, etc.. as much as say Amazing Spiderman.

[Stefanomjr]

6 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

This is exactly the question I had in mind when starting this thread. A real Great action page from a B or C title by a solid but not 'famous' artist.  A lot of art like this has been moving on up in value lately.  In my book it's A material but from a B creator/title therefore B level art.  If it were the same artist on the same book but a talking page with no heroes- it would be C or d level. This is all just guessing. What do others think?

I read comics between 1984-1994 & only got back into it within the last 6 or so years. 

Admittedly, there are big gaps in my knowledge. 

That page isn't in my nostalgia scope. The art and sequential  storytelling isn't for me. But for all I know it's some important moment in an important series that would command big bucks. 

Or a book the owner has fond memories reading. 

There is no universal A - just ask your spouses to grade your art

Edited August 12, 2018 by Stefanomjr
Clarity

[williamhlawson]

4 hours ago, Nexus said:

If you bought a piece you considered "A", but others considered "B", then you can 1. try to understand why there is this difference of opinion, 2. recalibrate your eye (especially if one is a new collector, and others have been around a while), and/or 3. be happy with what you got, be happy with your assessment, and to hell with what anyone else thinks.

Another point is especially for the new collectors, if they bought a piece they considered A and others consider B or C...then they most likely overpaid by a wide margin (especially at an auction venue).  Just a thought as this can drive some away quickly. 

I like the Cap page btw, I do the A B C thing based on a variety of feel oriented things (if its a D, its unownable for some reason).  You know, the whole 'you just know it when you see it' thing.  I'd call this a lower B to upper C "overall" page, based on artist, content, title, story sequence (historical?, important?, classic story? pop culture now? here), action, characters, artist's execution of the piece (regardless of name), page 'completeness' (i.e. a panel page that is a self contained portion or end of a portion of a story is a plus for display - splashes and covers are considered 'complete' imho)... 

If referring to a specific artists A, B, or C material you need a broad, knowledgeable depth of their work before even attempting.  By which I mean, if judging Zeck covers in A, B or C material...you're going to need to do some legwork to back it due to volume and time working.  Zeck work overall, wow...pack that lunch.  Just one artist I chose as an example, not being specific, he just seemed to fit the bill.  A working knowledge of what titles he worked on, characters he is best associated with, characters he created, etc...comes into play as well.

Just a few thoughts, rainy outside.

 

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by williamhlawson
I make mistakes?

[PhilipB2k17]

44 minutes ago, williamhlawson said:

Another point is especially for the new collectors, if they bought a piece they considered A and others consider B or C...then they most likely overpaid by a wide margin (especially at an auction venue).  Just a thought as this can drive some away quickly. 

I like the Cap page btw, I do the A B C thing based on a variety of feel oriented things (if its a D, its unownable for some reason).  You know, the whole 'you just know it when you see it' thing.  I'd call this a lower B to upper C "overall" page, based on artist, content, title, story sequence (historical?, important?, classic story? pop culture now? here), action, characters, artist's execution of the piece (regardless of name), page 'completeness' (i.e. a panel page that is a self contained portion or end of a portion of a story is a plus for display - splashes and covers are considered 'complete' imho)... 

If referring to a specific artists A, B, or C material you need a broad, knowledgeable depth of their work before even attempting.  By which I mean, if judging Zeck covers in A, B or C material...you're going to need to do some legwork to back it due to volume and time working.  Zeck work overall, wow...pack that lunch.  Just one artist I chose as an example, not being specific, he just seemed to fit the bill.  A working knowledge of what titles he worked on, characters he is best associated with, characters he created, etc...comes into play as well.

Just a few thoughts, rainy outside.

 

 

Zeck’s covers to Secret Wars #1 & #8 are “A” Pages, we all agree? 

[williamhlawson]

 

26 minutes ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

Zeck’s covers to Secret Wars #1 & #8 are “A” Pages, we all agree? 

 

All depends.  On what you believe.  I agree these both rock and are A pages, but if you could chose one based on appearance alone, the choice is probably obvious (to me anyway). The historical significance (although they both are imho), of the one out "A's" the other probably to most.  On appearance and art basis alone, the # 1 kills the # 8.  Now...does the art on that # 8 beat the Punisher's, the Kraven's, the Caps, Joe covers, the etc, etc. requires background of the field to say with absolute certainty.  If anyone believes the 'art' content of SW8 beats that of say Captain America Annual 8, I'd say their opinion is heavily swayed by historical significance.

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, Panelfan1 said:

Most of what I like is B or C material (in so far as characters and artists  are concerned). I appreciate some A stuff - but budget and nostalgia being what it is - I love a lot of B comics and C characters.  If others chime in and pointthat out about my collection - It's not a problem.  Just to illustrate what I am saying - I enjoy : Groo, Madman, firestorm, Blue Beetle, Deadman, Cloak and Dagger, etc.. just as much or more than say Batman. Or titles such as worlds finest, brave and the bold, marvel team-up, etc.. as much as say Amazing Spiderman.

Since almost everything I buy has the Phantom Stranger in it, I certainly can't disagree with your hobby taste. And let me add that it has some advantages. First, you can great really great artwork at a relatively cheap price because you are not getting a hot character. Second, you get to compare art by different artists more easily. From an analytic perspective, it's a helpful tool. And finally, there isn't a lot out there so it acts as a brake on spending while giving you the added pleasure of success with "the hunt."

Honestly, I can't see spending A level money on A level art anyway. That's investment grade buying, and I'm pretty pessimistic about OA's long term value. I'll take my 25%+/- profit on Alphabet stock over the past 18 months and be satisfied (and much better on Microsoft, I might add).

 

Edited August 12, 2018 by Rick2you2

[delekkerste]

8 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

The Cap page above would not be rated the same if it was some random 90’s indie character punching some random villain. It’s great because it’s Cap battling Red Skull in a mainline Marvel title. Right? 

Yes, that's why it's a C and not a D in my estimation.  If we call it a D, then what do we call the kind of drek that you are describing (random indie character page drawn by no name/not memorable artist)?  E level?  F? 

On the flip side, no way can this one be called a B page given how much better Captain America art would be in that category.  Even lesser pages by the top Cap artists like Kirby are B pages IMO; pages like the example you posted are a clear step down and have more in common with D pages than B. 

But, like Felix said, that's OK.  It's why you can buy Arvell Jones pages for 3 figures and not 5.  Nothing wrong with that if you just like the page or the character and want a relatively inexpensive example without any consideration for getting CAF views or making money on resale. 

 

 

[PhilipB2k17]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Yes, that's why it's a C and not a D in my estimation.  If we call it a D, then what do we call the kind of drek that you are describing (random indie character page drawn by no name/not memorable artist)?  E level?  F? 

On the flip side, no way can this one be called a B page given how much better Captain America art would be in that category.  Even lesser pages by the top Cap artists like Kirby are B pages IMO; pages like the example you posted are a clear step down and have more in common with D pages than B. 

But, like Felix said, that's OK.  It's why you can buy Arvell Jones pages for 3 figures and not 5.  Nothing wrong with that if you just like the page or the character and want a relatively inexpensive example without any consideration for getting CAF views or making money on resale. 

 

 

Let’s just call it a “poor man’s” B page. 

[Panelfan1]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

Yes, that's why it's a C and not a D in my estimation.  If we call it a D, then what do we call the kind of drek that you are describing (random indie character page drawn by no name/not memorable artist)?  E level?  F? 

On the flip side, no way can this one be called a B page given how much better Captain America art would be in that category.  Even lesser pages by the top Cap artists like Kirby are B pages IMO; pages like the example you posted are a clear step down and have more in common with D pages than B. 

But, like Felix said, that's OK.  It's why you can buy Arvell Jones pages for 3 figures and not 5.  Nothing wrong with that if you just like the page or the character and want a relatively inexpensive example without any consideration for getting CAF views or making money on resale. 

 

 

I think what you say is fair if A, B etc.. is across all artists and titles.. but within a character or single artist - perhaps there can be another measure?

 

Also - would it be fair to say while there are few As, there are way more Bs etc..

Edited August 13, 2018 by Panelfan1