Superboy 68 with Missing Page PayPal Claim Denied 0

[pjray55]

First off, I realize I did not count the pages when the book was received and I learned my lesson so no need to comment on that as I am fully aware.

So i purchased a copy of Superboy 68 off of eBay when a coupon was active.  I received the book and eventually sent it in to CGC.  The book came back a few weeks ago as a .5 blue label with a missing page.

I reached out to the seller and he said he was not responsible.  My time to file a claim through eBay had passed so I opened one through PayPal.

I just got this response that my claim was denied...

Based on the merchant’s response and the information we have to date, we have to deny your case. This decision was made because we have found no evidence that the item was misrepresented. The merchant sold the item with no grade value, so it cannot be determined that the value was reduced.

So they focused on the seller not giving a grade and therefore he was protected.  I have appealed saying it is not about the grade but rather a book that was not identified as having missing pages.  I was very surprised at the ruling.

 

Patrick

Edited September 13, 2018 by pjray55

[kav]

ask paypal to reconsider, and point out if they bought some food item that was poisoned, the seller could not claim that hey we never said it wasnt poisoned.

Or maybe point out they rule all the time on side of buyer with the sole reason that buyer is unsatisfied.  You are unsatisfied.  You could also out seller and we could invite him here to explain himself.

Edited September 13, 2018 by kav

[pjray55]

14 minutes ago, kav said:

ask paypal to reconsider, and point out if they bought some food item that was poisoned, the seller could not claim that hey we never said it wasnt poisoned.

Or maybe point out they rule all the time on side of buyer with the sole reason that buyer is unsatisfied.  You are unsatisfied.  You could also out seller and we could invite him here to explain himself.

That is the route I took more or less, I said if I sold a TV without any inner components or a computer without a mother board they would stand by me and not the buyer as long as I didn't describe it as being complete.

[kav]

4 minutes ago, pjray55 said:

That is the route I took more or less, I said if I sold a TV without any inner components or a computer without a mother board they would stand by me and not the buyer as long as I didn't describe it as being complete.

Remember we can bring him to his knees if needed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, pjray55 said:

First off, I realize I did not count the pages when the book was received and I learned my lesson so no need to comment on that as I am fully aware.

That's ok, PGX doesn't count pages, either.

I would skip Paypal entirely at this point and file a chargeback. Be very clear that what you were sold was incomplete.

What is critical here is that you were sold an item with missing parts; it was incomplete, and therefore not properly described.

If you're up for a fight, call someone at Paypal and demand to speak to a resolution/claims specialist (whatever they're calling themselves these days), and tell them that the GRADE of the book is irrelevant...it was INCOMPLETE, and therefore not what the seller offered. Any item is presumed to be complete unless otherwise explicitly stated. 

What's the listing in question?

If what you're saying is true, then the seller is absolutely responsible. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by RockMyAmadeus

[spidermanbeyond]

You have 30 days EBay, 45 days with PayPal and 60 days with credit card company to file a claim.  Always fast track if it is high value book.

Good luck.

[Cat]

1 hour ago, spidermanbeyond said:

You have 30 days EBay, 45 days with PayPal and 60 days with credit card company to file a claim.  Always fast track if it is high value book.

Good luck.

No, you have 180 days with PayPal. 

[spidermanbeyond]

14 hours ago, Mecha_Fantastic said:

No, you have 180 days with PayPal. 

Did not know this.  That is crazy generous for the buyer.

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news/paypal-expanding-return-window-to-six-months-100614.html

[Ride the Tiger]

Do you still have access to the listing? Maybe there's something in it that could help your case.

[thehumantorch]

22 hours ago, pjray55 said:

That is the route I took more or less, I said if I sold a TV without any inner components or a computer without a mother board they would stand by me and not the buyer as long as I didn't describe it as being complete.

ebay seller's handle?

[Junkdrawer]

20 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

That's ok, PGX doesn't count pages, either.

I would skip Paypal entirely at this point and file a chargeback. Be very clear that what you were sold was incomplete.

What is critical here is that you were sold an item with missing parts; it was incomplete, and therefore not properly described.

If you're up for a fight, call someone at Paypal and demand to speak to a resolution/claims specialist (whatever they're calling themselves these days), and tell them that the GRADE of the book is irrelevant...it was INCOMPLETE, and therefore not what the seller offered. Any item is presumed to be complete unless otherwise explicitly stated. 

What's the listing in question?

If what you're saying is true, then the seller is absolutely responsible. 

Technically if there was a small corner missing from page 3, wouldn’t that be considered incomplete as well? Sellers on eBay sell Toys missing parts, games missing pieces, damaged stuff, nobody is a professional grader of everything. And nobody understands comic books as well as the comic book community. eBay and PayPal reps have little knowledge and can’t even have a conversation about how Cgc grades books. To them it’s as is and the seller made no claims to its condition. Cgc says the condition is .5. 

[Poka]

If you paid with credit card you could skip PayPal and file a charge back claim if you feel you have not been made right

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Junkdrawer said:

Technically if there was a small corner missing from page 3, wouldn’t that be considered incomplete as well? 

Define "small."

1 hour ago, Junkdrawer said:

Sellers on eBay sell Toys missing parts, games missing pieces, damaged stuff, nobody is a professional grader of everything. And nobody understands comic books as well as the comic book community. eBay and PayPal reps have little knowledge and can’t even have a conversation about how Cgc grades books. To them it’s as is and the seller made no claims to its condition. Cgc says the condition is .5. 

Nevertheless, there's a clear line crossed when something as integral to the item as an entire page is missing. 

You don't need to be a professional grade of ANYthing to understand why that's a problem. My mother, who knows nothing about comics, would understand that a page missing is a deal breaker.

What CGC graded it is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is: there's a page missing. The item is incomplete. There is a presumption of completeness when selling anything, unless explicitly stated otherwise (or "as is", and there's no such thing on internet transactions.)

[Junkdrawer]

10 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Define "small."

Nevertheless, there's a clear line crossed when something as integral to the item as an entire page is missing. 

You don't need to be a professional grade of ANYthing to understand why that's a problem. My mother, who knows nothing about comics, would understand that a page missing is a deal breaker.

What CGC graded it is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is: there's a page missing. The item is incomplete. There is a presumption of completeness when selling anything, unless explicitly stated otherwise (or "as is", and there's no such thing on internet transactions.)

Im pretty much trying to understand the how’s and whys of the decision in favor of the seller. Not taking a side at this point.  Would be nice to see the original listing, photos and wordage. The time lapse to report a problem as the OP does understand is likely a factor. 

What I have seen on eBay is that there are people selling things that they know nothing about. They leave it up to the buyer to decide what to pay. They abide by the mandatory return policy set down by eBay and PayPal. It’s the buyers right to return tbe item with in the allotted time. 

The original listing will give us facts. When it was purchased. How long did the seller take to learn of the missing page. Was there photos depicting or indicating the evidence of a missing page. Remains to be seen. 

Fustrating, but no doubt a lesson learned. The time to argue and return the item is an ample window. To let it elapse and to make a case after the fact isn’t worthy. 2 Wrongs

[kav]

Yes and good reminder to all to always count pages as soon as you receive book.  I learned here to do it, and caught a couple I would have missed without knowing to do that.

[RockMyAmadeus]

3 hours ago, Junkdrawer said:

Fustrating, but no doubt a lesson learned. The time to argue and return the item is an ample window. To let it elapse and to make a case after the fact isn’t worthy. 2 Wrongs

Disagree entirely, but I've made this point before in other discussions: provided the buyer is telling the truth...and I have no reason to think they're not...then that page was missing when the seller offered it for sale as a presumptive complete copy. Just like you don't sell a 1956 Chevy Bel Air with the backseat missing without mentioning it, you can't say you're selling "Comic Book X #13" with pages missing. 

The time lapse...while important from a due diligence perspective...doesn't change that fact. The seller was unjustly enriched at the expense of another, and does not have a legal claim to the money they were paid. Here's the definition of unjust enrichment:

Quote

Unjust enrichment means when a person unfairly gets a benefit by chance, mistake or another's misfortune for which the one enriched has not paid or worked and morally and ethically should not keep. A person who has been unjustly enriched at the expense of another must legally return the unfairly kept money or benefits.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/u/unjust-enrichment/

The seller got a benefit...by mistake....for which they did not pay or work and morally and ethically should not keep. Missing pages are easy. There's no debate about it. It's not a question of "well, you think it's 6.5, and I think it's 5.5."  In this case, the bidders decided what to pay, as you put it, based on a false impression; with the omission of a vital detail that would have significantly impacted the price they would have been willing to pay. That the omission may have been unintentional doesn't alter that it was an omission.

If a seller doesn't understand what they're selling, they have no business selling it, and ought to be prepared for issues that might come up from their lack of experience.

And I've also said this before: in my opinion, it shouldn't matter if the purchase was 10 minutes ago, or 10 years ago. If a buyer can PROVE it's the item they bought, and they discover something like missing pages or restoration, then it's on the seller to make it right. It may not be expedient...which is perfectly understandable....but if I sold you a book in 1999 with an undisclosed missing page, and you can prove that...a tough challenge, no doubt...then it's on me to make you whole. 

[kav]

I say it's time to out the seller, regardless of whether paypal changes its mind or not.

[Junkdrawer]

4 hours ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Disagree entirely, but I've made this point before in other discussions: provided the buyer is telling the truth...and I have no reason to think they're not...then that page was missing when the seller offered it for sale as a presumptive complete copy. Just like you don't sell a 1956 Chevy Bel Air with the backseat missing without mentioning it, you can't say you're selling "Comic Book X #13" with pages missing. 

The time lapse...while important from a due diligence perspective...doesn't change that fact. The seller was unjustly enriched at the expense of another, and does not have a legal claim to the money they were paid. Here's the definition of unjust enrichment:

https://definitions.uslegal.com/u/unjust-enrichment/

The seller got a benefit...by mistake....for which they did not pay or work and morally and ethically should not keep. Missing pages are easy. There's no debate about it. It's not a question of "well, you think it's 6.5, and I think it's 5.5."  In this case, the bidders decided what to pay, as you put it, based on a false impression; with the omission of a vital detail that would have significantly impacted the price they would have been willing to pay. That the omission may have been unintentional doesn't alter that it was an omission.

If a seller doesn't understand what they're selling, they have no business selling it, and ought to be prepared for issues that might come up from their lack of experience.

And I've also said this before: in my opinion, it shouldn't matter if the purchase was 10 minutes ago, or 10 years ago. If a buyer can PROVE it's the item they bought, and they discover something like missing pages or restoration, then it's on the seller to make it right. It may not be expedient...which is perfectly understandable....but if I sold you a book in 1999 with an undisclosed missing page, and you can prove that...a tough challenge, no doubt...then it's on me to make you whole. 

Your point is perfect when it’s a deal between 2 parties. Unfortunately how eBay and pp facilitate transactions by putting terms and parameters into existence clouds the once simple and straight forward deal. Knowing how eBay should work is different than knowing how eBay can work. Buying on eBay, you agree to their terms and policies or you don’t play. You can’t say what’s right or wrong or how you feel or quoute definitions. Yes a deal between 2 people is something more moral and work outish should the need arise. There are scumbags that can simply exploite the system and use the loopholes to enrich themselves. The implemented judge and jury that is eBay’s case resolving department slaps a time frame on a case so we can move on and close each deal in its entirety. Problems will arise and just need to be dealt with within the time frames. That is how eBay works and perhaps not how you’d like it to work. 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Junkdrawer

[FineCollector]

Don't know if this is the case here, but would the word "as-is" in some form exonerate the seller?  Had they said it hadn't been inspected, rather than just declining to offer a grade, would that fly?  That's how it works with on-site auctions.  Obviously, if you're there in person, you get to inspect the item yourself, but there are plenty of places that don't bother plugging anything in to test it, and put all the risk on the buyer.  We need to see the listing.

[boatfund]

I had a similar situation happen here on the boards.  Bought two books off a seller here.  They accepted returns (I can't remember the exact terms 14 days, 30 days whatever).  When I received them I checked them out and looked through for interior tears and missing coupons and didn't see anything out of the ordinary.  I agreed with the raw grades the seller gave them.  Sent them off to CGC and about 2-3 months later one came back Qualified with a missing page. 

The seller had a stellar rep, but I never contacted him.  I felt I had more than enough time to check the book out when I got it and it was my responsibility to accept or return it when I got it.  I sold the qualified slab and took a loss.  I would buy from the seller again.

If the book had come back restored I would have contacted him, just fyi.  I am not a resto expert but I can count pages. 

I realize everyone will not agree with me, but that's ok.