Is raw comic deterioration over time a good reason to slab? 0

[kav]

1 minute ago, Ryan. said:

Doesn't the paper need to breathe? Serious question.

NO

[kav]

The constitution is in argon.  No breathing argon.  Vacuum would be best.

[Ryan.]

13 minutes ago, kav said:

NO

THANKS 

[sfcityduck]

2 hours ago, Ryan. said:

Doesn't the paper need to breathe? Serious question.

The best preserved GA comics were all kept un-slabbed and un-bagged for 40 years.  The key appears to be to put them in a cool dark place and then don't touch them for decades.

[kav]

5 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

The best preserved GA comics were all kept un-slabbed and un-bagged for 40 years.  The key appears to be to put them in a cool dark place and then don't touch them for decades.

the best preserved church books were at the bottoms of the stack-no air

[exitmusicblue]

 

50 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

The best preserved GA comics were all kept un-slabbed and un-bagged for 40 years.  The key appears to be to put them in a cool dark place and then don't touch them for decades.

The lawyer in me wonders hypothetically... had they been slabbed and in the same environment, perhaps they would’ve been even better preserved?

44 minutes ago, kav said:

the best preserved church books were at the bottoms of the stack-no air

Case in point, already a difference among raws even when stored under the same (favorable) conditions.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by exitmusicblue

[kav]

1 minute ago, exitmusicblue said:

 had they been slabbed and in the same environment, perhaps they would’ve been even better preserved?

Yes

[sfcityduck]

Some certainly would not have had dust shadows if they were slabbed.  

I'm not sure I agree with the no oxygen theory.  I believe the bigger factors are no heat and no light.

[kav]

16 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Some certainly would not have had dust shadows if they were slabbed.  

I'm not sure I agree with the no oxygen theory.  I believe the bigger factors are no heat and no light.

 

The oxygen atom (0), shown connecting the two glucose units (rings) in illustration 9 has formed a covalent bond by sharing the six electrons in its outer (L) orbit with one electron from each carbon to form a stable outer orbit of eight electrons. The two hydrogen atoms each share their single electron with the three electrons each carbon atom has left. Combined, this provides another stable outer orbit of eight electrons. Now an acid (a hydrogen ion - proton [H+]) is introduced (see illustration 10).

The positively charged hydrogen ion + (acid) is strongly attracted to a negatively charged electron. The hydrogen ion combines with one of the electrons being shared between the outer energy levels or orbits of the carbon and oxygen atoms. The hydrogen atom now shares this electron with the oxygen atom, breaking the bond between the two glucose units or rings of the cellulose chain (see illustration 11). Now, instead of a single, long chain there are two shorter, weaker chains. The right side of the ring is stable because by sharing the electron from the hydrogen atom, the outer orbit of the oxygen atom still contains eight electrons.

 

The left side of the chain, however, is not stable. The hydrogen ion combined with one of the carbon atoms electrons leaving the carbon atom with only five electrons. This loss of one negative electron means the carbon atom now has a positive charge, so it is now a carbonium ion. The positively charged carbonium ion now seeks to achieve the same stability possessed by the right side of the ring shown in illustration 11. The presence of a water molecule will provide the opportunity for the carbonium ion, and the left side of the ring, to become stable (see illustration 12).

 

The positively charged carbonium ion accepts a negatively charged electron from the water molecule. This electron is shared between the outer orbits of the carbon atom and the oxygen atom. The left side of the ring is now also stable, having returned to the same number of electrons (as shown in illustration 10). However, the electron now being shared between the outer energy levels or “orbits” of the oxygen and carbon atom was taken from the hydrogen atom. This leaves a free hydrogen nucleus (which is a proton or acid) (see illustration 13).

 

The hydrogen ion (acid) that was released, will break another covalent bond connecting the rings of a cellulose chain, which will release yet another hydrogen ion. As the chain is broken into successively shorter lengths, it becomes progressively weaker. When one half to one percent of the bonds are broken the paper will be virtually useless. When the cellulose chain is broken, it also weakens and often breaks the hydrogen bonds which bind the ribbons, or chains, into sheets. The layers held by Van der Waals forces suffer the same fate. The hydrogen bonds are relatively weak, having a bond strength of 3 to 6, compared to the bond strength of 86 for the carbon-oxygen bond shown in illustrations 9, 10, and 11. The hydrogen bonds strength comes from the close proximity of the hydrogen atom to the oxygen atom.

[Callaway29]

9 hours ago, Ryan. said:

Doesn't the paper need to breathe? Serious question.

 

9 hours ago, kav said:

NO

I also remember reading where they need to “breathe” because as the comic deteriorates an output is harmful, to the book, gasses...and I also thought the inner well was permeable for that reason, per CGC...?

[namisgr]

A mylar with a buffering backing board provides better archival protection than a slab, which lacks the anti-acidic buffering protection of the backing board.  In either case, the addition of microchamber paper between the front and back covers and their interior pages can minimize transfer stain.

 

Edited September 27, 2018 by namisgr

[theCapraAegagrus]

7 hours ago, kav said:

 

The oxygen atom (0), shown connecting the two glucose units (rings) in illustration 9 has formed a covalent bond by sharing the six electrons in its outer (L) orbit with one electron from each carbon to form a stable outer orbit of eight electrons. The two hydrogen atoms each share their single electron with the three electrons each carbon atom has left. Combined, this provides another stable outer orbit of eight electrons. Now an acid (a hydrogen ion - proton [H+]) is introduced (see illustration 10)...

Thanks, kavpedia...

[Schmakt]

13 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

No.... no it is a paid service that doesn't require regrading....

Right, but my question is if, as suggested above, comics in older holders may begin to lose value (or prestige?) if there is no added protection and preservation of the grade what's to prevent people from just submitting for the reholder service?  What does CGC do if an encapsulated comic has clearly been damaged inside the holder but has no damage to the holder itself?

[marvelmaniac]

Archeologists uncover written text that is thousands of years old.

Even though older comics (Gold/Silver) were printed on the least expensive newsprint with acidic inks as long as they are not physically abused, left in sunlight (or other UV), kept in damp/humid or excessively hot/cold conditions and moved from one extreme to the other they will last for generations to come.

Regardless of how the book is stored you cannot stop the book from destroying itself over time, you can only slow down the process, all the Bag/Board Combo or CGC case does is protect the book from physical damage from handling and storage.

One of the things I always heard was that each time a change occurs in temp/humidity the paper in the book expands and contracts, this expansion and contraction causes more acids to be released causing the book to decay at a quicker rate.

They say that when you get a book home you should let it adapt to its new environment before sealing it away in its bag and then keep those conditions as consistent as possible.

[theCapraAegagrus]

47 minutes ago, marvelmaniac said:

...Regardless of how the book is stored you cannot stop the book from destroying itself over time, you can only slow down the process, all the Bag/Board Combo or CGC case does is protect the book from physical damage from handling and storage...

Challenge accepted.

[Hudson]

15 hours ago, kav said:

NO

I am not sure the paper needs to breath, however, I would say that the vacuum you want to seal your book in would need to have proper humidity.  

I know there was a thread a few years ago about people putting books in an airtight safe and ended up with rusty staples.   

Thoughts??

[Hudson]

20 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

 

Also: Retention of value.  All things considered, 50 years from now it’s quite possible that the condition will be worse off slabbed or un-slabbed.  Slabbing now will reflect the current grade (for better or worse) for as long as a comic is in the holder.

Good question.

With great regret I say that I don’t think I will be alive 50 years from now, and so the “value” of my books at that time will not be as important to me; as my body decays at a much faster rate than those precious pieces of paper I spent way too much time and money collecting and preserving.  

 

[marvelmaniac]

14 minutes ago, TwoPiece said:

Challenge accepted.

My books are all stored in Mylites with Acid Free Boards in Comic Storage Boxes out of All Light and Most will Probably Never be Touched by My Hands Again so I Do Not Anticipate Any Including my PR 0.5/FR 1.0 Books with Lots Of Tape to Self Destruct while I am Still Alive or not even while My Children Are Still Alive (currently they are 43 and 39) as long as Conditions/Circumstances Do Not Change.  

Catalog the books with detailed descriptions and pictures and store them away in a controlled archival environment (Safety Deposit Box) and in 75 - 100 years have your Great Great Great Grandchildren let my Great Great Great Grandchildren know how it turns out. 

If the condition of the books used in the experiment does not deteriorate without any outside influences I will say "I was incorrect" on my statement. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

4 minutes ago, marvelmaniac said:

My books are all stored in Mylites with Acid Free Boards in Comic Storage Boxes out of All Light and Most will Probably Never be Touched by My Hands Again so I Do Not Anticipate Any Including my PR 0.5/FR 1.0 Books with Lots Of Tape to Self Destruct while I am Still Alive or not even while My Children Are Still Alive (currently they are 43 and 39) as long as Conditions/Circumstances Do Not Change.  

Catalog the books with detailed descriptions and pictures and store them away in a controlled archival environment (Safety Deposit Box) and in 75 - 100 years have your Great Great Great Grandchildren let my Great Great Great Grandchildren know how it turns out. 

If the condition of the books used in the experiment does not deteriorate without any outside influences I will say "I was incorrect" on my statement. 

Alright, I'll see you in Hell!

[kav]

7 hours ago, Callaway29 said:

 

I also remember reading where they need to “breathe” because as the comic deteriorates an output is harmful, to the book, gasses...and I also thought the inner well was permeable for that reason, per CGC...?

The harmful gases come from oxygen combining with glucose in paper and creating acid.