PhilipB2k17 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, Peter L said: It's actually a lot more complicated than that. My hope is that this is written in a neutral way. One of the criticisms that comicsgaters have of the new Kathleen Kennedy Star Wars movies are that they all seem to feature petite British women as the heroes, and who are able to be skilled warriors with little or no training, who can then beat up stormtroopers in hand to hand combat. They feel that these main character female arcs show a development that are undeserved and are the poorly written trope of the "Mary Sue." The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing. Similar to this trope, there is another called the "White Savior trope" that features a main Caucasian protagonist who journeys into a foreign exotic locale, initially stumbles around the new land, but then quickly learns how to be the new master of this exotic locale, often gets the hottest ethnic woman, and teaches the locals how to become better at their own culture. Some of the movies with this basic trope include The Last Samurai, Avatar, Pocahontas, Dances with Wolves, and The Wolverine among many others. This trope mirrors the same criticisms that comicsgaters have with the new Star Wars movies, featuring a main character who unrealistically achieves power and greatness over what is portrayed as a "lesser people" based merely on gender or ethnicity. Bruce Lee popularized the martial arts craze during the early 70s. He went to the tv networks and wanted to make a show. The tv executives all turned him down, but then made what was basically his show with Caucasian actor David Carridine in yellowface. So instead of prime electrifying Bruce Lee, we got something lesser based on cultural appropriation. We got something not as good as we would have had. We got Taco Bell instead of King Taco, or Panda Express instead of Din Tai Fung. Out of this martial arts popularity started by Bruce Lee, then stolen from him and culturally appropriated into something lesser, the character of Iron Fist was inspired. The original Iron Fist character was based on this white savior trope. However like much of the comic work in earlier eras with pseudo-ethinic roots, it has not aged well (For example compare the stereotype comic source original Killmonger to the fantastic flim version). Some may argue that the films/tv shows should follow the comics. However, when we look at some examples, we can see how this attitude does not hold up to scrutiny. For example, note that there was little uproar from these same critics when the Ancient One was whitewashed. Dr. Strange director Scott Derekson said that he didn't know how to avoid making the Ancient One into a stereotypical Asian, and he didn't want to have a "Dragon Lady" so he whitewashed the character. He and his four Caucasian male cowriters could not find a way to write an Asian character so they changed gender and whitewashed her. Instead of hiring an Asian writer who had a different cultural experience who could help them write a story that takes place in Tibet, they chose to whitewash. So then it seems those who think it's ridiculous to change characters for tv or films have little problem when characters are whtiewashed but not the other way around. Around this time, and in response to those who dismissed whitewashing, Marvels and Astro City writer Kurt Busiek wrote a convincing long form twitter post showing how Steve Ditko drew Dr. Strange as Asian illustrated with many examples. So then for those who want comics accurate adaptations, then why no complaints about Dr. Strange being portrayed by a Caucasian actor? If some want comics accurate film, note that there were no criticisms of Avengers 2 changing Amadeus Cho into his mother Helen Cho, who then lusted after Thor, which perpetuated an anti-Asian stereotype. There was no outcry from those who want ethnically accurate comic movies when Ed Skrein was cast as the Asian American Major Ben Daimio in the new Hellboy movie. Due to a lack of criticism when whitewashing occurs in comics movies, complaining about changing characters and races seems disingenuous. The successful Marvel films and TV have been made better with changes, such as Iris Alba as Hemidall, Vondie Curtis-Hall as Ben Urich, and Zazie Beetz as Domino. Clearly they picked actors based on who they felt could perform the best and the end product benefited from that. Note that in Infinity War, Thanos' motivation was changed for the movie to make it better. No one seemed to complain that the film had been changed from the source material. Plots change, character motivations change, Avengers team members change, relationships between characters change and no one comments. Why do some believe that race should be the one critical thing that cannot be changed from a comic to a tv show or film? When they were casting Iron Fist, a large number of comics artists and writers and actors pointed the problem with this racist trope in Iron Fist and that it could be avoided with the right star and showrunner. Some of the more vocal included Eisner best writer winner Marjorie Liu, Gail Simone, and Agents of Shield stars Chloe Bennet, and Ming Na Wen. The problem with the poor choice of out of shape Finn Jones was exacerbated when actor and experienced martial artist and half- Asian Lewis Tan (pictured next to Finn Jones below) revealed that he had auditioned for the role and was turned down because of his race. Tan stole his scenes when he appeared as Zhou Cheng in an episode of Iron Fist and did all of his own stunts. He also played Shatterstar in Deadpool 2 and is also in Into the Badlands, so he was not a total unknown. Instead of choosing someone who had more talent and ability, the showrunners chose someone with no physical attributes or talent for the role who got the job solely based on race. So that no one would miss the racist undertones, Marvel TV executive Jeph Loeb advertised the racism of Iron Fist by appearing in yellowface at the Marvel SDCC Iron Fist panel. So if they had cast an Asian-American actor, even a half Asian-American actor, or chosen to portray the modified story of one of the 23 out of 27 Iron Fists with an Asian background, Iron Fist would not have been based on a racist trope but could have been something different and better. As it is, they chose someone lesser as a showrunner and lesser as a star who turned out a bad product. Anyone who watches good martial arts in Asian movies could see how glaringly poor the choices that were made in Iron Fist and what it could have been. The poorly signed and ruined original art is an advertisement of that opportunity cost. There was a ton of complaining about “whitewashing” the Ancient One, and Ed Skrein actually turned down the Hellboy role because of it. Then let’s remember the huge backlash to casting Michael B Jordan as Johnny Storm in the FF reboot. I don’t agree that they made Thanos’ motivation in Infinity War “better.” It’s dumber. If his concern was over population and lack of resources, he could have used the Gauntlet to provide abundance. If he’s just insane and, say, worships at the cult of Death, then wiping out half the universe as an ultimate sacrifice to Death would make much more sense. You wouldn’t have to go the Death as a woman route Jim Starlin did. Edited October 16, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipB2k17 Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) I do think you should respect the source material, to a large extent. The rumors that Warners are thinking about casting Michal B. Jordan as Superman seem nuts to me. Jordan is a fabulous actor, but wrong for Superman. I actually think he would be a better Bruce Wayne and Batman. He’s got more intensity and emotional depth as a character. Edited October 16, 2018 by PhilipB2k17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhamlau Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 isnt Jeph just doing "karate kid" cosplay? blizzardtonight, SquareChaos and Dokstarr 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybuck43 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 On 10/16/2018 at 1:53 PM, zhamlau said: isnt Jeph just doing "karate kid" cosplay? Yup. It's the Karate Kid costume. Not sure how people didn't pick up on that. Dokstarr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastaar Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 He is a horrible actor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mister_not_so_nice Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 1 minute ago, Blastaar said: He is a horrible actor. But he writes a decent comic book Dokstarr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokstarr Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, jaybuck43 said: Yup. It's the Karate Kid costume. Not sure how people didn't pick up on that. So does that mean that Loeb was cosplaying as Ralph Macchio who plays that Karate Kid which is apparently yellow-face (I hope the sequel TV show from earlier this year knows!!). It's like a racist version of Inception! Edited October 22, 2018 by Dokstarr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybuck43 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 4 minutes ago, Dokstarr said: So does that mean that Loeb was cosplaying as Ralph Macchio who plays that Karate Kid which is apparently yellow-face (I hope the sequel TV show from earlier this year knows!!). It's like a racist version of Inception! Btw, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, Cobra Kai is FANTASTIC and well worth the subscription for the month to watch. Dokstarr, Twanj and Pete Marino 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Marino Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 3 hours ago, jaybuck43 said: Btw, if anyone hasn't seen it yet, Cobra Kai is FANTASTIC and well worth the subscription for the month to watch. Cobra Kai was way better than it had any right to be. I'll second the recommendation. Dokstarr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagnusX Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 In the spirit of this thread "Ruined by a signature" what are your thoughts on this cover? Superman # 411 Cover Note: With all due respect to the owner a well know and respected collector... alxjhnsn, Twanj and mister_not_so_nice 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malvin Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, MagnusX said: In the spirit of this thread "Ruined by a signature" what are your thoughts on this cover? Superman # 411 Cover Note: With all due respect to the owner a well know and respected collector... err.. WTF! How can there be so many people associated with that issue? or is it anyone that has ever worked for Julie? Malvin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCarter27 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 1 hour ago, MagnusX said: In the spirit of this thread "Ruined by a signature" what are your thoughts on this cover? Superman # 411 Cover Note: With all due respect to the owner a well know and respected collector... I love it! A piece of DC Comics history. timguerrero and delekkerste 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panelfan1 Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 6 hours ago, MagnusX said: In the spirit of this thread "Ruined by a signature" what are your thoughts on this cover? Superman # 411 Cover Note: With all due respect to the owner a well know and respected collector... I think this is different - as the uh on the cover is it was for and it's like a giant birthday card. Better as a historical pie e, than a piece of art. delekkerste and Rick2you2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davekarlen Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 I really have a hard time with a signature inside the body of a page. The borders are okay for me if it's not too large and distracting, please no sharpies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 On 10/28/2018 at 3:30 PM, MagnusX said: In the spirit of this thread "Ruined by a signature" what are your thoughts on this cover? Superman # 411 Cover Note: With all due respect to the owner a well know and respected collector... This is the exception to the rule right here. timguerrero 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...