Marvel January 1962 'Black Circle' Repriced Editions 4 4

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 12:38 PM, namisgr said:

 

I would say on CGC's behalf in deciding what constitutes the 'regular' version and the 'variant' one: Those with a circle blackout and a reprinted or stamped higher price next to it have a 'variant' feel to me, given that for the entire Marvel SA, this was a scarce and unusual feature.  So I kind of see where some of the graders there would decide to refer to blackout circle copies as 'variants'.

 

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, they're not. They're currently telling Tim that his corrected copy is the regular and the uncorrected versions are the variants.

On 9/9/2023 at 12:38 PM, namisgr said:

Whatever your take on what constitutes a regular printing and a variant one, I agree with you that it would certainly be helpful for collectors if CGC used a single, unified standard for them all.

Indeed. The census volumes aren't that great for either version, so it shouldn't be too hard to maintain consistency.

[namisgr]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:43 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, they're not. They're currently telling Tim that his corrected copy is the regular and the uncorrected versions are the variants.

Indeed. The census volumes aren't that great for either version, so it shouldn't be too hard to maintain consistency.

I thought they were being inconsistent with their 'variant' nomenclature.  If inconsistency isn't a problem, then, does it really matter which version they call the 'regular' and which the 'variant'?  

This reminds me of the confusion over labeling Gold Key issues of Star Trek #1 - for a long time, CGC identified copies with back photocovers of Captain Kirk as 'back photocover variant', when it turned out there were no copies lacking it and it was just the sole variety all along.  Sometimes, a little feedback from the collecting community can help straighten out confusion, as it eventually did in this case.

Edited September 9, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:32 PM, namisgr said:

I thought they were being inconsistent with their 'variant' nomenclature.  If inconsistency isn't a problem, then, does it really matter which version they call the 'regular' and which the 'variant'?  

Sorry, I thought you were defending their current position. They have been inconsistent historically, yes, as the examples I have posted show, but they are currently saying - in response to challenge - that the 'regular' (their wording) version is the variant.

I think it does matter which is the variant and their 'order of printing' logic doesn't stack up. If the Marvel 35c variants were found to be printed first, would that make the 30c copies the variants? Of course not.

Also, if the overwhelming majority of collectors, nuanced or otherwise, refer to the corrected black circle versions as the variants, then all CGC are doing - once again - is creating confusion in the market place by giving that label status to the uncorrected ones. As you said yourself, the corrected versions are fairly unique in the hobby. They stand out from the crowd due to their unusualness. And what is unusual about them? They vary from the norm.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:32 PM, namisgr said:

This reminds me of the confusion over labeling Gold Key issues of Star Trek #1 - for a long time, CGC identified copies with back photocovers of Captain Kirk as 'back photocover variant', when it turned out there were no copies lacking it and it was just the sole variety all along.  Sometimes, a little feedback from the collecting community can help straighten out confusion, as it eventually did in this case.

I agree - it's great when they take on board the views of the collecting community and effectively utilise their knowledge, as they did when they changed from "UK Edition" to "UK Price Variant". All I ever ask is that they consider a reasoned argument and then explain if / why they disagree. When they won't do that, and dig their heels in when they know they're wrong, that can be dispiriting.

Let's see if anything changes as a result of this dialogue - Tim tells me that CGC Mike is back on the case 

[CGC Mike]

I have sent a note to the team  regarding this.  I hope to have a final decision on Monday.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:16 PM, CGC Mike said:

I have sent a note to the team  regarding this.  I hope to have a final decision on Monday.

Thanks. If they would consider the arguments I have put forward in the last few posts of this thread, I'd appreciate it.

Starting here:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/452776-marvel-january-1962-black-circle-repriced-editions/?do=findComment&comment=12921042

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:16 PM, CGC Mike said:

I hope to have a final decision on Monday.

Which, if so, we'll no doubt find out on Tuesday along with what the forum has lost / gained post upgrade!

[CGC Mike]

On 9/9/2023 at 9:17 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Thanks. If they would consider the arguments I have put forward in the last few posts of this thread, I'd appreciate it.

Starting here:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/452776-marvel-january-1962-black-circle-repriced-editions/?do=findComment&comment=12921042

 

Thanks.  I saw that earlier this morning.  I will send all of the examples if needed, after I receive a reply from the message I sent last night.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:14 PM, N e r V said:

I don’t have all my black circle copies to check on but if memory serves the first black circle copies list cover price at 10 cents in the indicia but the latter 12 cents covers list it as 12 cents in the indicia?

 

 

You're onto something there N e r V.

Both the originally 10c and 9d priced copies have 10c indicias. The 'regular' 12c issue has the correct 12c indicia price. This surely means that the US pricing error was spotted after the UK Price Variant covers were printed. 

So if we follow CGC's current 'order of printing' logic, the pence copy must have been printed first (otherwise it would have a 12c indicia) and therefore the US copies are the variants!  

 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 6:53 PM, N e r V said:

Not defending anyone’s opinion but if you separate rarity from the mix I at least understand the logic they are going with which simply is whatever is first published is the original and anything else is a variant. As collectors we always associate any variant as being whichever copy is rarer not when it’s published. I’ve also heard some collectors call these first and second prints which is also incorrect since the change occurred during the same print run when Martin decided the change to 12 cents needed to happen “now”. 

NerV, I'm responding to your comments in the 'Black Circle' variant thread rather than clutter up the romance thread with variant discussions.

I respectfully disagree with your position above as the 12c and 10c repriced books are all part of the same print run. Each is a first printing and was published at the same time. They started printing 10c covers, spotted their mistake, switched to 12c and then run the already printed covers through an overprint. So if both books have first printing status, only one can be the variant. In the case of Gunsmoke Western #68 and Journey Into Mystery #76 there are two variants as they run off a pence copy for UK distribution also (see previous post).

It's clear to me that the intention was for the late January 1962 books to be priced at 12c, not 10c. When the mistake was noticed, they corrected it mid print run. The black circle and overprinted 12c price make those books unique, as they vary from what was intended / the normal pricing arrangement. So the Black Circle books should surely be regarded as the variants, wouldn't you say?

[MattTheDuck]

That's really a gigantic editing error by Marvel there.  Not only did someone create the cover art for 10c cover-price books which was approved in final editing, but they also went ahead and submitted the "regular" indicia with the 10c price.  Now, since comic books of this kind had always been 10c one would think a  price increase (20 percent!) would be a real world-shaker of which no one in the industry could have been unaware.  It would be really interesting to know how this news somehow failed to filter down to the people actually responsible for putting the books together.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:08 PM, MattTheDuck said:

That's really a gigantic editing error by Marvel there.  Not only did someone create the cover art for 10c cover-price books which was approved in final editing, but they also went ahead and submitted the "regular" indicia with the 10c price.  Now, since comic books of this kind had always been 10c one would think a  price increase (20 percent!) would be a real world-shaker of which no one in the industry could have been unaware.  It would be really interesting to know how this news somehow failed to filter down to the people actually responsible for putting the books together.

I don't know. There are so many errors and muck ups in this period it doesn't surprise me one bit, Matt 

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/9/2023 at 2:20 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I don't know. There are so many errors and muck ups in this period it doesn't surprise me one bit, Matt 

There's certainly some truth to that!

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/9/2023 at 10:29 PM, MattTheDuck said:

There's certainly some truth to that!

Such a brilliant period for comics. So many new things happening, quirks and variations. And all using the old processes 

[CGC Mike]

This is what I was told:

The blacked out 10 cents came first, then the regular 12 cents came second. This is our rationale as to why we chose to do it that way. 

[Ameri]

On 9/9/2023 at 5:31 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Such a brilliant period for comics. So many new things happening, quirks and variations. And all using the old processes 

Speaking of old processes, the black circle overprint was used by Marvel back in 1939. In the case of Marvel 1, it was not the price that got the black slug, it was the month. The indicia was blacked out as well. 

[Aman619]

If Im following this correctly, and  dont always cause it gets confusing as to which cheap solution the printers resorted to each time !  Seems to me that the books were all printed with 10c covers in the circle and 10c in the indices.  The error was noticed so all these finished comics (covers attached to interiors) were run through again under a black plate only effort.  A black circle inked over the 10C circle and an added 12C on the artwork.

In addition, they chose to reprint (probably ALL that months issues that had the erroneous 10c) wit corrected covers and indicias stating 12c.  This is evidenced by interiors with a NEW indicia, and NOT comics that had a black plate surprinted over as they did in 1939 for Marvel Comics 1.  They blacked out the beginning text that stated Oct 1938 with a thick rule; and also added a new line of text art the end, a bolder font, and not on the same baseline as the already printed indicia text on ten last line.. This has to be the order of printing. (If the 12c were printed first they wouldn't have needed to reprint any that say 10c.)

So which is the VARIANT?  Usually for UK copies it's been decided that the UKs are the variant and are printed BEFORE the US copies. Does BEFORE determine which is the variant?  One could argue that the 12c IN THE CIRCLE is the only variant, as both versions were the original printing plus a black overlay print run at some later date.  In my mind the variant would be the ones with the black circle.   (Though. to be a "variant", shouldn't an object "VARY" from an already existing thing?  Or just be a smaller subset of them all?)

On a tangent, did any of the first 10c printings get out of the printing plant into the wild? If not, and these copies stayed at the printers and were shipped only after they were fixed with the black overlay, I'd label them them ALL the first printing.... and the 12c in a circle as a 2nd printing.  You could say that there were NO variants because while there was a price change, ONLY 12c copies were distributed! via 2 printings.... and you never had a situation where both 10c and 12c copies were available to purchase.  

ok my head hurts. I go lay down now.

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/11/2023 at 3:07 PM, Aman619 said:

did any of the first 10c printings get out of the printing plant into the wild

Boy, wouldn't it be great to find one of those? 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:03 AM, MattTheDuck said:

Boy, wouldn't it be great to find one of those? 

It would. It's not impossible that a few might have escaped, uncorrected, but I've never seen one. And you know me Matt, I do spend more than a little time looking for these things.

 

Expect an example imminently. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

If Im following this correctly, and  dont always cause it gets confusing as to which cheap solution the printers resorted to each time !  

These things aren't easy to follow, no. Explaining production theories in words can be tricky. You know what you mean when you are typing, but does anyone else? 

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

Seems to me that the books were all printed with 10c covers in the circle and 10c in the indices.  

The three books in question (JIM #76, GW #68, LR #97) all appear to have commenced their cover print runs that way, yes.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

The error was noticed so all these finished comics (covers attached to interiors) were run through again under a black plate only effort.  A black circle inked over the 10C circle and an added 12C on the artwork.

They may have been assembled - it's possible - but I think it more likely that they were corrected unattached. There is very little movement on the added circle and price. Some of the later examples I posted in this thread show the added elements moving about the cover quite significantly which is what you might expect to see if the books were assembled and cut. The lack of movement on the three black circle books leads me to conclude that the covers were run through as a batch, before being attached to the guts.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

In addition, they chose to reprint (probably ALL that months issues that had the erroneous 10c) wit corrected covers and indicias stating 12c.  

My summary on page one of this thread shows the extant pricing position of all the January 1962 cover dated books. My exercise on page four, based on arrival dates, shows the likely cut off point when the 12c pricing increase was received. 

I don't think the books were reprinted. I think it more likely that the three salient books were in mid-production when the message came. They stopped the (cover) presses, and amended the pricing to show 12c on the cover and the indicia. They then ran the incorrect covers through a K plate to add the black circle and 12c price. They didn't bother with, or forgot about correcting the internal 10c indicia price. This wasn't a precise process - it was printing kids comics.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

This is evidenced by interiors with a NEW indicia, and NOT comics that had a black plate surprinted over as they did in 1939 for Marvel Comics 1.  They blacked out the beginning text that stated Oct 1938 with a thick rule; and also added a new line of text art the end, a bolder font, and not on the same baseline as the already printed indicia text on ten last line.. This has to be the order of printing. (If the 12c were printed first they wouldn't have needed to reprint any that say 10c.)

We don't need to be experts to know that the 10c priced covers were the starting point of the run. But the corrections to them may have been made after the 'clean' 12c run was completed. The books are still in production at this point. The overprint is official. So it is possible that the corrections were the last thing done, making the black circle books last in the production order. If CGC are using 'printing' order alone to determine variant status, then I would like to know how they know that the black circle books were printed first. My belief is that they can't know. It's possible that the black circle overprinting was last. That aside, my belief is that CGC are wrong to use order of printing alone as the deciding factor when ascribing variant status.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

So which is the VARIANT?  

The first printing book that varies from the 'main event', often with a smaller print run, produced for a reason / audience separate to the standard. 

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

Usually for UK copies it's been decided that the UKs are the variant and are printed BEFORE the US copies.

My research has proven that UK Price Variants were sometimes printed prior to the cents copies, but most times not. This is a red herring though, Aman - order of printing, within a first print run, has nothing to do with ascribing variant status.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

Does BEFORE determine which is the variant?  One could argue that the 12c IN THE CIRCLE is the only variant, as both versions were the original printing plus a black overlay print run at some later date.  In my mind the variant would be the ones with the black circle.   (Though. to be a "variant", shouldn't an object "VARY" from an already existing thing?  Or just be a smaller subset of them all?)

CGC are saying that the regular (their word) 12c copies of JIM #76, GW #68 and LR #97 are the variants. Their rationale is because the black circle copies were 'printed first'. I'm trying to get them to see how foolish that position is if for no other reason than the fact that the regular books look just that - regular - and the black circle books scream variant. 

This is how I feel about it.

CGC are saying "2 + 2 = 7"

I'm saying "Guys, no, it's 4"

Responding to the challenge, they say "It's 7 because 7 is a bigger number than 4"

Using CGC Mike as the messenger - CGC decision makers will never enter direct dialogue with anyone - I proceed to show why 2 + 2 = 4 by using calculators, slide rules, historic text, Einstein's Theory of Relativity and anecdotal examples from history where CGC have stated over and over that 2 + 2 = 4. I then carefully outline why the size of the numbers in question is irrelevant. I invite Mike to tell them to read my thinking, and he says he will.

Mike then posts their revised thinking and it says "2 + 2 = 7. Our rationale for this is because 7 is a bigger number than 4"

CGC never seem to want to respond directly to the grist of an argument. You can prove that they are wrong, and they will simply ignore you and the merits of your argument. That is why I did not respond to CGC Mike's reply. What would be the point? He's just the messenger, but he may as well have just posted "Push Off". 

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

On a tangent, did any of the first 10c printings get out of the printing plant into the wild? If not, and these copies stayed at the printers and were shipped only after they were fixed with the black overlay, I'd label them them ALL the first printing.... and the 12c in a circle as a 2nd printing.  You could say that there were NO variants because while there was a price change, ONLY 12c copies were distributed! via 2 printings.... and you never had a situation where both 10c and 12c copies were available to purchase.  

No, that's silly Aman. They are all first printings. The 10c copies were corrected before they were distributed. There wasn't a product recall. There are more regular 12c copies than corrected ones. That puts a reprint out of the question. They would not have run a full compliment, corrected them all, and then run a second full compliment. They had enough trouble selling a full print run as it was, and overprinting was a natural part of production. There's no logical reason that they would then run a second full run, or a reprint run, if the corrected version was placed into distribution. The only thing that makes sense is that the error was spotted mid-run, and corrected. That led to the distribution of a mix of versions, one priced 12c in the normal way and one priced 12c in a variant way.

CGC have manifestly picked the wrong book to label as the variant, and have given a reason that doesn't make sense, which, if applied elsewhere, would overturn basic understandings in the hobby. They are saying this is the variant....

...and this isn't:

Putting my arguments to one side, find me another reference point anywhere on the internet that agrees with them.

At the end of the day, it gets dark, and there is nothing we can do about it. CGC never explain, never back down. Their response in this thread was an insult, frankly. They would do well to be a bit more responsive, especially when people are trying to help them.

On 9/11/2023 at 11:07 PM, Aman619 said:

ok my head hurts. I go lay down now.

Wise move Aman!

Edited September 12, 2023 by Get Marwood & I
Low ceilings