Marvel January 1962 'Black Circle' Repriced Editions 4 4

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/11/2023 at 1:44 AM, Ameri said:

Speaking of old processes, the black circle overprint was used by Marvel back in 1939. In the case of Marvel 1, it was not the price that got the black slug, it was the month. The indicia was blacked out as well. 

I wouldn't mind owning one of each of those!

[namisgr]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:08 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

CGC have manifestly picked the wrong book to label as the variant, and have given a reason that doesn't make sense, which, if applied elsewhere, would overturn basic understandings in the hobby. They are saying this is the variant....

...and this isn't:

I find myself on the side of the CGC decision here.  The first version to be printed and released to market makes logical sense to refer to as the original, and any that follow afterwards the variant.

I totally get that you and others may think differently about it.  But in this case I don't personally find CGCs decision to be egregious.

[Get Marwood & I]

 

On 9/12/2023 at 12:16 PM, namisgr said:

The first version to be printed and released to market makes logical sense to refer to as the original, and any that follow afterwards the variant.

Both the corrected and uncorrected versions of our 3 books were printed and distributed at the same time. One did not 'follow' the other, so I don't understand your rationale namisgr, any more than I do CGCs?

Using your argument, if the 35c Marvel variants were shown to have been printed first, would you classify the 30c regular versions as the variants? I've made my arguments very clearly. Help me understand your rationale, please.

[namisgr]

On 9/12/2023 at 7:49 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Using your argument, if the 35c Marvel variants were shown to have been printed first, would you classify the 30c regular versions as the variants? I've made my arguments very clearly. Help me understand your rationale, please.

Given that they were printed at the same time, it may not be the best example.

But yes, if a first printing of a particular comic had a higher cover price than later printings, then I'd consider the later printings the variants.  The key first determinant for me is the timing on which different versions roll off the presses.  It was my read of the CGC position that this was their concept, too.  Another determinant would be whether a small trial run of some feature was involved (with different pricing or a change in cover art, etc), as trial runs would most appropriately fall under the variant category.

Edited September 12, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, namisgr said:

Given that they were printed at the same time, it may not be the best example.

The different versions of JIM #76, GW #68 and LR #97 were also printed at the same time. I've noted that at least three times now in this thread - why do you keep ignoring it? I don't mean that to sound narky - I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you keep glossing over the points I have made in support of my position and which undermine yours?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:15 PM, namisgr said:

But yes, if a first printing of a particular comic had a higher cover price than later printings, then I'd consider the later printings the variants.

Later printings can't be variants by definition. They are reprints. Only books from the same print run can be variants. 

[namisgr]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:20 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

The different versions of JIM #76, GW #68 and LR #97 were also printed at the same time. I've noted that at least three times now in this thread - why do you keep ignoring it? I don't mean that to sound narky - I'm genuinely puzzled as to why you keep glossing over the points I have made in support of my position and which undermine yours?

Call me a skeptic about the idea they were printed at the same time.  After all, it's not hard to envision a scenario where the 'black circle' comics were printed first with 10 cent cover prices and run again through the presses for the correction, followed a time later (days, or perhaps a week or two, too short a time period for them to be considered as 'reprints') by the ones printed from the get-go with 12 cent cover prices.

That's how CGC appears to have read the situation as well.

On 9/9/2023 at 7:39 PM, CGC Mike said:

This is what I was told:

The blacked out 10 cents came first, then the regular 12 cents came second. This is our rationale as to why we chose to do it that way. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:25 PM, namisgr said:

Call me a skeptic about the idea they were printed at the same time.  After all, it's not hard to envision a scenario where the 'black circle' comics were printed first with 10 cent cover prices and run again through the presses for the correction, followed a time later by the ones printed from the get-go with 12 cent cover prices.

A fact which I acknowledge. No one knows the order. I've said this several times. But the salient point is that the order is irrelevant. Variants aren't determined by order of printing. Variants are determined by identifying which book(s) in a first printing run is the addition to the main event.

I think we've done this to death now namisgr. I did ask someone to check that I hadn't lost my mind on this and they confirmed that I haven't. I've tried very hard to explain why this decision is wrong, but I accept that you don't see it. I can't present my rationale any other way though, so unless you have something new to say which might give me reason to reconsider my position, I suggest we knock it off.

[namisgr]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:41 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

I think we've done this to death now namisgr.

On that we agree.  But you asked me a question "The different versions of JIM #76, GW #68 and LR #97 were also printed at the same time. I've noted that at least three times now in this thread - why do you keep ignoring it"  and so I respected it and answered you.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:45 PM, namisgr said:

On that we agree.  But you asked me a question "The different versions of JIM #76, GW #68 and LR #97 were also printed at the same time. I've noted that at least three times now in this thread - why do you keep ignoring it"  and so I respected it and answered you.  

For which I'm grateful. But unless I'm misunderstanding you, you said my choice of Marvel 35c variants wasn't a good comparison as they were "printed at the same time", the inference being that you thought our 3 black circle books weren't. I replied that our 3 black circle books were printed at the same time (as the 'regular' copies), the return inference being that you were confused as to what books were produced when. My comparison was good. I was comparing one set of first printing books with another. Respectfully, nothing in your responses convinces me that you understand what a variant is in the first instance, let alone how to correctly ascribe status to one.

 

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/12/2023 at 1:08 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

find me another reference point anywhere on the internet that agrees with them.

Here's the MCS description of LR #97 "Black Circle" - This is the "Black Circle" variant edition with the price circle blacked out and 12 cents printed below it.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:58 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Here's the MCS description of LR #97 "Black Circle" - This is the "Black Circle" variant edition with the price circle blacked out and 12 cents printed below it.

There you go. MCS identify the black circle book as the variant. CGC don't.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 3:59 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

On 9/12/2023 at 3:58 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Here's the MCS description of LR #97 "Black Circle" - This is the "Black Circle" variant edition with the price circle blacked out and 12 cents printed below it.

There you go. MCS identify the black circle book as the variant. CGC don't.

To be clear, my challenge was for someone to find a reference online that agrees with CGC's position.

[MattTheDuck]

On 9/12/2023 at 8:02 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

To be clear, my challenge was for someone to find a reference online that agrees with CGC and namisgr's position.

Yes, I understood that.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere on the vast internet did.  I'm not sure what that would prove.  I wonder if it's not a nomenclature problem - MCS has FF #110 as a "Green Error" rather than a variant.  (This is also not to hold out MCS as some kind of Bible of definitions in the hobby - it's just easy for me to find and they have extensive descriptions of most books).

[namisgr]

On 9/12/2023 at 10:59 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

There you go. MCS identify the black circle book as the variant. CGC don't.

Which of the two do you think hit the newsstand first, the black circle with corrected version or the 12 cent circle one?  It's a virtual certainty that the former was printed prior to the latter, or else had the printers been rolling out 12 cent circle versions from the get-go there wouldn't have been the need for any circle blackouts.  If true, it's not unreasonable to surmise that the black circle version rolled off the presses and made it to the newsstands first, followed shortly thereafter by the 12 cent circle version.

Edited September 12, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:08 PM, MattTheDuck said:

Yes, I understood that.  It wouldn't surprise me if someone, somewhere on the vast internet did.  I'm not sure what that would prove. 

It would prove that the overwhelming majority of people in the hobby disagreed with CGC on this. Let me be clearer still - if I thought that CGC were right about something, and everyone else was wrong, I would fight tooth and nail for them and their position. But on this occasion everyone thinks they are wrong and they are wrong. Demonstrably.

On 9/12/2023 at 4:08 PM, MattTheDuck said:

I wonder if it's not a nomenclature problem - MCS has FF #110 as a "Green Error" rather than a variant.  (This is also not to hold out MCS as some kind of Bible of definitions in the hobby - it's just easy for me to find and they have extensive descriptions of most books).

I've seen 'Green Error Variant' many times. Right or wrong, people are correctly identifying that it varies from what was intended using the words 'error', 'variant' or both. That error was probably printed first. They spotted it, and corrected it. Using CGCs logic, that makes the correctly coloured copy the variant!

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:10 PM, namisgr said:

Which of the two do you think hit the newsstand first, the black circle with corrected version or the 12 cent circle one?

It doesn't matter.

On 9/12/2023 at 4:10 PM, namisgr said:

 It's a virtual certainty that the former was printed prior to the latter, or else had the printers been rolling out 12 cent circle versions from the get-go there wouldn't have been the need for any circle blackouts.  If true, it's not unreasonable to surmise that the black circle version rolled off the presses first, followed shortly thereafter by the 12 cent circle version, and also made it to the newsstands first.

There are a finite, very limited number of "what landed first" distribution scenarios. They don't matter. You might have missed me saying it, but ORDER OF PRINTING WITHIN A FIRST PRINTING BOOK RUN HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ASCRIBING VARIANT STATUS. 

Shall I say it again? 

[namisgr]

CGC's stance differs, and I can see why they view it that way, as it makes sense to me.  I can see your viewpoint as well.  

The overwhelming majority of my own personal experience with price 'variants' comes from decades of collecting underground comix.  But in their case the terminology is easy, as higher cover price versions were routinely printed many months if not years after the first printing run, and so they are rightly referred to as 'printings'.  But sometimes the printing of undergrounds went a bit wonky, and what was intended to be a single print run sometimes produced differences in cover colors, or the cover cuts, or subtle features on the splash page or back cover, and are considered to be variants, or in some cases, versions.

Edited September 12, 2023 by namisgr

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:21 PM, namisgr said:

CGC's stance differs, and I can see why they view it that way, as it makes sense to me.  I can see your viewpoint as well.  

You do realise that you are saying that you are agreeing with CGC's stance that 2+2 = 7, but you can also see why I am saying it's 4. Don't you?

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:21 PM, namisgr said:

The overwhelming majority of my own personal experience with price 'variants' comes from decades of collecting underground comix.  But in their case the terminology is easy, as higher cover price versions were routinely printed many months if not years before the first printing run, and so they are rightly referred to as 'printings'.  But sometimes the printing of undergrounds went a bit wonky, and what was intended to be a single print run sometimes produced differences in cover colors or the cover cuts, and are considered to be variants.

I understand where you're coming from a little better now, Namisgr, but the word 'variant' has a very specific meaning when dealing with price variants and comics of the Marvel, DC, Charlton etc variety. I need to go now - got to cook the dinner - but if you want, I'll send you some links later which describe how these books are treated by the community and CGC (notwithstanding this current example of erroneous thinking). A variant can only come from a first print run. Everything else is a subsequent printing, reprint or repackaged item, regardless of the cover price and / or intended market. 

We failed to agree, but it was fun having someone to spar off of for once. Enjoy the rest of your day