how to approach a dealer about books I think might be overpriced. 6 6

[pemart1966]

1 hour ago, NoMan said:

I want to apologize to you for humanity. I don't envy your position. It's why I just pay what's asked for seeing as how you have to deal with this. The first show I went to in, I dunno, 38 years, i was looking thru an xmen box and a guy kinda nudged me aside and I thought, "I guess that's how things are now" and kinda let him share my space. He got a bunch of books, haggled with dealer slammed them down,  obviously not getting his way, screaming "The customer is always right!" and stormed off still screaming, "THE CUSTOMER IS ALWAYS RIGHT!" I was so embarrased I kinda wanted to just leave. 

EDIT: I buy not to flip. True, I will sell my collection in 20 years and do hope to sell for more than I bought, bout most importantly it's books I care for, not what's hot or maybe I'm the sucker every dealer hopes for. I tend to stay with a small group of sellers that I feel is fair, fully understanding I have no idea what fair is. I usually don't do my homework. I got 500$, I want that book, it's priced at 500$, here you go. 

Car dealers must LOVE you...

[NoMan]

2 minutes ago, pemart1966 said:

Car dealers must LOVE you...

Hardly. Just bought a new car. My wife handles that. She’s from the street and not to messed with. I just sit there and watch her work. 

[pemart1966]

3 minutes ago, NoMan said:

Hardly. Just bought a new car. My wife handles that. She’s from the street and not to messed with. I just sit there and watch her work. 

You should take your wife to the shows.  Sounds as if she'd be able to get that $500 book for $400 quite easily...  

[Raze]

13 hours ago, RCheli said:

I've read this whole thread, and the one point that really gets to me is that the OP thought the books were overpriced. Where did he get that? From Overstreet? Ebay? PCH prices are going through the roof, and the price that was listed may very well be what current FMV is, but that could've escalated significantly even in the past year. At a show a couple of months ago, a guy set up who hadn't done anything in a couple of years and all his PCH was snatched up by a dealer at close to current guide prices because these books can sell consistently well at multiples of Overstreet. 

I am always more than happy to deal at shows, but there are a ton of factors. These include how much I paid for the book(s), how long I've had it for sale, whether it's hot or not, how the person is paying, how much they're buying, if they've bought from me in the past, and how much the offer from the buyer is.

Thanks @the blob you were right with your statement about this.

@RCheli I thought they were high but didnt say anything the first day. I took pic s of the books to do research before I said anything. Your also right in the fact that PCH books are blowing up! When i did my research it it based on current ebay listings in same grade, last sold listings on eBay, OSPG, and I pay a lot of attention to waht is sold here on the boards, but I did NOT use GPA because I dont have a account. With that info is how I came to believe that they were overpriced. One he had a asking price of $425 last sold of that same book in same grade was a CGC graded copy for $250 ,his was raw. Thats $175 over last sale. Same thing with others in the deal $50-$125 over last sold or available on ebay.

 I honestly thought that I was wrong that’s why I did the research to see if I was close or completely wrong.

As I also stated the gentleman who i purchased the books from was more of a Bronze to modern dealer and said he was having a hard time selling them and pricing them, not to mention they were in a box off to the side and not part of his wall display.  I had also heard that a few of his key issue books were overpriced from other people at the show as well, One of the books was an amazing Spiderman 300 looked like an 8.0 a friend of mine told me and he was asking $460 raw. That’s a bit overpriced As well.

[NoMan]

1 hour ago, pemart1966 said:

You should take your wife to the shows.  Sounds as if she'd be able to get that $500 book for $400 quite easily...  

My wife cares about cars, I don't.

I care about comics, my wife don't.

[blazingbob]

3 minutes ago, Raze said:

Thanks @the blob you were right with your statement about this.

@RCheli I thought they were high but didnt say anything the first day. I took pic s of the books to do research before I said anything. Your also right in the fact that PCH books are blowing up! When i did my research it it based on current ebay listings in same grade, last sold listings on eBay, OSPG, and I pay a lot of attention to waht is sold here on the boards, but I did NOT use GPA because I dont have a account. With that info is how I came to believe that they were overpriced. One he had a asking price of $425 last sold of that same book in same grade was a CGC graded copy for $250 ,his was raw. Thats $175 over last sale. Same thing with others in the deal $50-$125 over last sold or available on ebay.

 I honestly thought that I was wrong that’s why I did the research to see if I was close or completely wrong.

As I also stated the gentleman who i purchased the books from was more of a Bronze to modern dealer and said he was having a hard time selling them and pricing them, not to mention they were in a box off to the side and not part of his wall display.  I had also heard that a few of his key issue books were overpriced from other people at the show as well, One of the books was an amazing Spiderman 300 looked like an 8.0 a friend of mine told me and he was asking $460 raw. That’s a bit overpriced As well.

The other thing is that a lot of times overgrading is supporting overpriced.  If the sticker says $460 and no grade he might think its a lot higher then a 8.0. 

[jsilverjanet]

My wife cares about firemen. I don’t 

Edited June 28, 2019 by jsilverjanet

[Artboy99]

33 minutes ago, Raze said:

Thanks @the blob you were right with your statement about this.

@RCheli I thought they were high but didnt say anything the first day. I took pic s of the books to do research before I said anything. Your also right in the fact that PCH books are blowing up! When i did my research it it based on current ebay listings in same grade, last sold listings on eBay, OSPG, and I pay a lot of attention to waht is sold here on the boards, but I did NOT use GPA because I dont have a account. With that info is how I came to believe that they were overpriced. One he had a asking price of $425 last sold of that same book in same grade was a CGC graded copy for $250 ,his was raw. Thats $175 over last sale. Same thing with others in the deal $50-$125 over last sold or available on ebay.

 I honestly thought that I was wrong that’s why I did the research to see if I was close or completely wrong.

As I also stated the gentleman who i purchased the books from was more of a Bronze to modern dealer and said he was having a hard time selling them and pricing them, not to mention they were in a box off to the side and not part of his wall display.  I had also heard that a few of his key issue books were overpriced from other people at the show as well, One of the books was an amazing Spiderman 300 looked like an 8.0 a friend of mine told me and he was asking $460 raw. That’s a bit overpriced As well.

what book are you discussing? If it is relatively hard to find or considered a classic cover I can see the logic behind a $175 increase over the previous sale. How long ago was the previous sale? Is the book actually the same grade as the previous sale or is it a little nicer?. Are there other copies available to purchase or is his the only one you can find?

Many factors to consider.

How much do you want the book? If I really am after the book $175 isnt going to stop me from buying it although I would make an offer somewhere between the price of the last sale and his listed. $350 perhaps?

[Raze]

5 hours ago, Number 6 said:

Not intended as a judgement regarding your flipping some of the books you bought - they’re yours and you’re perfectly free to do with them as you wish - I might venture an observation. 

You mentioned a couple of times that his prices were “wrong” and in this post that they were “high”.  Perhaps it’s just me, but I interpret that to mean “well above fair market value” 

However - and again, this may just be me - but I think there’s a big difference between “fair market value” and “meat on the bone to flip”. If you were able to get to the point where the books were priced to flip it makes me question how “high” or “wrong” his prices were to begin with. 

Not trying to bust your hump, just making the observation that others have made that the “rightness” or “wrongness” of a price is subjective and is often influenced by what side of the transaction your on. 

Even if it could be objectively determined that a seller’s prices were wrong I personally would never bring that point up in conversation.

I would simply ask if he’s open to negotiation and any quoting of guide prices and completed sales would be to explain where my offer is coming from, not ripping his sales model. 

Great observation! A few things I probably didnt use the right words- “high” “wrong” might not have came out right. So I would agree that I should have said something to the effect that you pointed out which is “well above FMV”.

As to the flipping of books. My intention is to sell a few that would pay for most of the ones Id like to keep. I collect PCH with a strong focus on EC (which I didnt get any EC books). Even then im not going to be making a “killing” on this deal.

And again to point out that I did show the dealer last sold ebay in or around same range, and used OSPG so we could agree on something close to a FMV, then made my offer.

Also I did post the question here for advice and have received amazing feedback!! I was very respectful when I went about this and I enjoy just talking to him.

[Krismusic]

FMV in comics is highly subjective. 

[Raze]

3 hours ago, blazingbob said:

The other thing is that a lot of times overgrading is supporting overpriced.  If the sticker says $460 and no grade he might think its a lot higher then a 8.0. 

Hey guys, to this point.  Unfortunately the dealer had told me he got these books in a trade. I asked to see the books so I can get some sort of a grade range to see if maybe over grading was a possibility. I was going through some of the books and found things that he might have missed such as, a detached centerfold, detached cover so forth so on.  

So I don’t know if he really knew what grades the books were. It was almost like he had never even pulled them out to look at them.  

The book that he had marked that was the most expensive at $475, the price guide only goes that high for 9.0 and this book clearly was not a 9.0,  once I took it out I found many defects that would have put the book right around the same grade range as the last sold copy in that grade range.

 Someone did ask what was the last time that book was sold on eBay the answer would have been within the last two months, anything older and the market could have swayed one way or the other. 

[Raze]

18 minutes ago, Krishosein said:

FMV in comics is highly subjective. 

You are right.

[Krismusic]

6 minutes ago, Raze said:

You are right.

Love.. hearing... those words …… ahhhhhhhh  

But yeah @Raze I think you did a wonderful job more than most buyers would do as FMV is even more subjective when dealing with Raw books look at all the Varying degree's of grading you get in the "Hey buddy spare a grade" section of the forums hence why we have CGC to help negate the subjectivity on grades so we can just argue about pricing and timing and what's hot and what's not and what other copies have sold for etc.. So I don't know if anyone said anything but

You did everything right, you took note of the books researched it, approached and treated the other with respect and worked out something.  

Take a 

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Krishosein said:

FMV in comics is highly subjective. 

Ehhhhhh....I dunno.

If a book sells 50 times in a few months in the same grade for roughly the same amount...that's a pretty strong argument for FMV. It's like we were discussing in another thread about what is, and is not, a "preview", as opposed to a "first appearance." There are no rules...but there IS precedent, which IS knowable, and there's consensus. 

If that book has sold for $3,000 in that grade, and there are dozen of sales that have a narrow range of prices (say $2700-$3300)...it's probably a fair bet to say that a copy priced at $10,000 is NOT "FMV." It's also probably a fair bet to say an offer of $200 is also not "FMV." 

So where's the line...? Who knows? Depends on the individual buyer and seller. But that doesn't mean that sales history can't give guidance as to what a reasonable price is.

[Raze]

7 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ehhhhhh....I dunno.

If a book sells 50 times in a few months in the same grade for roughly the same amount...that's a pretty strong argument for FMV. It's like we were discussing in another thread about what is, and is not, a "preview", as opposed to a "first appearance." There are no rules...but there IS precedent, which IS knowable, and there's consensus. 

If that book has sold for $3,000 in that grade, and there are dozen of sales that have a narrow range of prices (say $2700-$3300)...it's probably a fair bet to say that a copy priced at $10,000 is NOT "FMV." It's also probably a fair bet to say an offer of $200 is also not "FMV." 

So where's the line...? Who knows? Depends on the individual buyer and seller. But that doesn't mean that sales history can't give guidance as to what a reasonable price is.

Ok this makes sense. But I would guess with some books that dont have a lot of sales data, FMV would be subjective?

[RockMyAmadeus]

1 hour ago, Raze said:

Ok this makes sense. But I would guess with some books that dont have a lot of sales data, FMV would be subjective?

Oh, no, it's definitely subjective. But it's subjective in the way I might call a book a 9.8 and you might call it a 9.6, and CGC might call it a 9.8...not I might call it a 6.0, you might call it a 10.5, and CGC might call it a 1.8. 

In other words, there's no "correct" answer, but you should at least be able to get to the same page. The idea that commonly traded books establish a "baseline FMV" also implies that such a baseline would also exist for less commonly traded book....albeit, subject to much wider swings. 

That Turtlemania #1 Gold that @Tony S was talking about is a GREAT example: there are only 10, and they've been tightly held for decades. One sold...for probably the first time in 15-20 years (?)...on the open market on Comiclink a little while back for $58,000. No one would have predicted that. But the book is rare enough that there is no such thing as "FMV", and only what the buyer and seller can agree on...or what the buyer has to pay to beat every other buyer (in this case, $58,000.) 

New Mutants #98, on the other hand? No problem. And everything else falls somewhere on that scale.

It can be graphed, but I possess neither the skills, nor the patience, to make one.

Edited June 28, 2019 by RockMyAmadeus

[Krismusic]

49 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

Ehhhhhh....I dunno.

If a book sells 50 times in a few months in the same grade for roughly the same amount...that's a pretty strong argument for FMV. It's like we were discussing in another thread about what is, and is not, a "preview", as opposed to a "first appearance." There are no rules...but there IS precedent, which IS knowable, and there's consensus. 

If that book has sold for $3,000 in that grade, and there are dozen of sales that have a narrow range of prices (say $2700-$3300)...it's probably a fair bet to say that a copy priced at $10,000 is NOT "FMV." It's also probably a fair bet to say an offer of $200 is also not "FMV." 

So where's the line...? Who knows? Depends on the individual buyer and seller. But that doesn't mean that sales history can't give guidance as to what a reasonable price is.

I think the better word to use would be 2018 average sales price at x grade and x price as Fair market value is still subjective even on books with lots of sale history where a "baseline FMV" is established the FMV for comic xx was 1500 in 2015 if I see a few more sales in 2017 at 1300 does that mean the Fair market value is still 1500 no that means based on the volume of sales and time frame that "baseline FMV" is now 1300 as it had more sales, etc.. or whatever criteria we want to think of. Hence the statement that FMV = subjective maybe not highly subjective all the time. FMV works for commodities like candy, maybe, so for example Candy, in Canada; not sure about the USA has had its price stable so a chocolate bar has stayed within a certain range of a few dollars but what candy manufacturers have done to compensate for inflation, expenses, etc... is they have reduced the size of the chocolate bar but have kept the price line the same and stable this is maintaining and having a FMV where the price value stays consistent but the product changes to compensate for the variables that encompass a price; as compared to comics where the FMV fluctuates after every couple of month auctions or news, etc.. but the books do not they change the FMV price instead.

[october]

41 minutes ago, RockMyAmadeus said:

 

That Turtlemania #1 Gold that @Tony S was talking about is a GREAT example: there are only 10, and they've been tightly held for decades. One sold...for probably the first time in 15-20 years (?)...on the open market on Comiclink a little while back for $58,000.

  

[RockMyAmadeus]

36 minutes ago, october said:

  

Yeah. That happened.

Crazy, huh?

It's a seller's market.

[RockMyAmadeus]

45 minutes ago, Krishosein said:

"baseline FMV" is established the FMV for comic xx was 1500 in 2015 if I see a few more sales in 2017 at 1300 does that mean the Fair market value is still 1500 no that means based on the volume of sales and time frame that "baseline FMV" is now 1300 as it had more sales, etc.. or whatever criteria we want to think of.

Of course, and that should go without saying: FMV is not static, but dynamic, and is subject to change. What FMV means is "the fair market value of the item in front of you at the time of potential purchase." "Baseline FMV" does not mean "this is what an item is, or should be, worth." It's just a rough average of however much previous sales data you want to use. You have 50 sales in the last six months that average $3,000, and your baseline FMV today is $3,000....provided there's no sharp increase (there's no such thing as a sharp decrease in price...only demand) in price during that time period. Price increases are almost always sharp, spikes; price decreases are gentle swells, like a feather falling to earth.