The Great First Appearance Debate- Resolved??? 1 1

[comicginger1789]

6 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

 

I really don't think a hand or shadowed outline warrants mention.  

 

 

 

 

And that’s fine. I think it should. Again if it is part of the characters history and coming about, why not label it? Again my goal here is NOT to try and pump up value on anything. It’s to create a term that makes sense. If you want to eliminate glimpse, that’s ok. We just have a different opinion

[kav]

Marvel could make a bundle by buying up a bunch of common books, taking some side character from that book like a cab driver or whatever and making him a super hero and referencing he was that cab driver in that old book etc.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

If what mattered was story arcs, then most of the popular characters would have multiple first appearances.  Especially Batman, who goes from the Dark Knight, to guy with a kid tagging along, to scion of the Batman Family of Batwoman, Batgirl, Bathound, Batmite, etc., to new look Batman, to socially relevant Batman, to Dark Knight, to R-rated Batman, etc. 

 I'm pretty sure it was always* Bruce Wayne under the cowl. But nice try to confuse the issue with that "story arc" bull.

Barry Allen's Flash is obviously based on Jay Garrick's Flash (it's even in the story), but they are not the same character.

[Lazyboy]

2 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

And, of course, your position on TT is a minority position that is incorrect, but we can agree to disagree.  No need to veer this thread off on that debate.

It's 100% correct, and the only reason to attempt to stick with the status quo is that it is the status quo and has been for far too long. There is no other rational argument in favor of The Brave and the Bold 54 being the first Teen Titans.

[kav]

5 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

It's 100% correct, and the only reason to attempt to stick with the status quo is that it is the status quo and has been for far too long. There is no other rational argument in favor of The Brave and the Bold 54 being the first Teen Titans.

54 appears to sell for considerably more than 60 so just like with Hulk 181 it seems that 54 is indeed considered the first appearance.  I just perused ebay if someone can verify with GPA that this is true.

[ADAMANTIUM]

9 minutes ago, kav said:

54 appears to sell for considerably more than 60 so just like with Hulk 181 it seems that 54 is indeed considered the first appearance.  I just perused ebay if someone can verify with GPA that this is true.

#54 goes for about $5000 in 9.2 $800 in 8.0

https://comics.gocollect.com/guide/search?q=brave+and+the+bold+54

#60 goes for about $2000 in 9.2 $650 in 8.0

https://comics.gocollect.com/guide/search?q=brave+and+the+bold+60

Edited September 12, 2019 by ADAMANTIUM

[Lazyboy]

1 minute ago, kav said:

54 appears to sell for considerably more than 60

The market only deals with money, not definitions.

But the whole point is that people think it's something it's not because those with influence have been wrong for so long that all most people know is the lie. I believed it too, until I actually had the opportunity to read the books a few years ago.

I no longer blindly trust those in influential positions in the hobby because I've found far too many things they got wrong.

[ADAMANTIUM]

added links  

[kav]

10 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

#54 goes for about $5000 in 9.2 $800 in 8.0

https://comics.gocollect.com/guide/search?q=brave+and+the+bold+54

#60 goes for about $2000 in 9.2 $650 in 8.0

https://comics.gocollect.com/guide/search?q=brave+and+the+bold+60

BOOM

debate over. 

[kav]

10 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

The market only deals with money, not definitions.

But the whole point is that people think it's something it's not because those with influence have been wrong for so long that all most people know is the lie. I believed it too, until I actually had the opportunity to read the books a few years ago.

I no longer blindly trust those in influential positions in the hobby because I've found far too many things they got wrong.

But money follows first appearances.  I dont think Hulk 181 is the first appearance, but it has been decided by collectors that it is.  Same with BB 54.  

[Lazyboy]

Just now, kav said:

But money follows first appearances.

Often, yes. And even if it's a complete lie (ie. Showcase '96 #3).

5 minutes ago, kav said:

I dont think Hulk 181 is the first appearance, but it has been decided by collectors that it is.

No, 181 is the book with higher demand. Nobody can "decide" that it is the unqualified first appearance of Wolverine, which is factually Incredible Hulk 180.

5 minutes ago, kav said:

Same with BB 54.

That book has been falsely called the first Teen Titans for decades, which is the only reason for the demand.

[kav]

But you are right that the only rational argument for 54 being the first is that it is the status quo.  Batman and superman teamed up-maybe there's even a world's finest where another hero joined them but that does not equal the first justice league.

[comicginger1789]

I think what @kav means by "the money follows the first appearance", is that if CGC labels it first appearance, people pay more. ASM #300 and Hulk #181 both say first full appearance. The actual firsts (as many here seem to agree with) use different wording

On Hulk #180, it does say "first appearance of Wolverine in cameo on last page"

In ASM #299 (arguably a larger first appearance as we get a full page), simply says "Venom cameo" on the label. No use of the word "first", not even a note about what page (guess they love Wolvie more?)

I don't think doing the above is right. That being said, if it switches and uses labelling similar to what I have Frankensteined together, kav could be very right and the money could shift. I don't think it should because I would much rather a Hulk #181 in my collection than a #180 for the reasons I have mentioned (amazing, iconic cover, full battle in the issue...it is great!).

So perhaps this endeavour is fruitless. I am seeing that more and more. I think all one can do is educate people. And at the end of the day, it is up to them. If someone wants to spend $500 on a high grade Foom #2 because they love Wolverine so much and feel this is a first appearance of some kind, can we stop them? I don't like it but it really is outta this collector's hands. I just think CGC could be better with their labelling. I really do. I think that ASM #299 should read "1st appearance of Venom in cameo at end" as its the same as Hulk #181. At least be consistent. 

[comicginger1789]

Foom #2 is an interesting case too. No notation of the so called prototype of Wolvie yet there have been some high grade copies sold for high prices. Has this fanzine always had value? The cover is the reason I have always wanted it as I love Steranko

Edited September 13, 2019 by comicginger1789

[kav]

15 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

because they love Wolverine so much and feel this is a first appearance of some kind, can we stop them?

I can stop them.

[Lazyboy]

6 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

I think that ASM #299 should read "1st appearance of Venom in cameo at end" as its the same as Hulk #181. At least be consistent. 

Venom is revealed in ASM 299 with a full body shot, but it's absolutely not his 1st appearance. It's not a cameo, either.

[comicginger1789]

19 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Venom is revealed in ASM 299 with a full body shot, but it's absolutely not his 1st appearance. It's not a cameo, either.

How is it different that Wolverine's full body shot at the end of 180? We get multiple panels, a full page body shot and even the name below telling us who it is

[Lazyboy]

22 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

if CGC labels it first appearance, people pay more

In most of those cases, the relative values were set before CGC even existed and nothing on the labels would change how the money is spent.

For some newer, or at least newly hot, books, some people do just foolishly follow the CGC labels, even when they are blatantly wrong.

There are even some people who think what's on the label is more important than anything else. It's quite disturbing.

[Lazyboy]

Just now, comicginger1789 said:

How is it different that Wolverine's full body shot at the end of 180? We get multiple panels, a full page body shot and even the name below telling us who it is

Because Wolverine never appeared before the end of Hulk 180, while Venom appeared in 3 books before ASM 299.

[comicginger1789]

9 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Because Wolverine never appeared before the end of Hulk 180, while Venom appeared in 3 books before ASM 299.

So your definition of Venom's first appearance is....??

If you say Web of Spidey #18 I might cry

Edited September 13, 2019 by comicginger1789