The Great First Appearance Debate- Resolved??? 1 1

[Foley]

2 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

TL;DR.

Cliff Notes?

Take the time to read it if you're interested.

It's a well thought out post and OP put his time and effort into it. Asking for a "Cliff Notes" version isn't fair to him, and wouldn't do the post justice anyway.

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Foley said:

Take the time to read it if you're interested.

It's a well thought out post and OP put his time and effort into it. Asking for a "Cliff Notes" version isn't fair to him, and wouldn't do the post justice anyway.

[Ride the Tiger]

13 hours ago, kav said:

One collector with deep pockets could start selling Hulk 181 cheap and buying up all the 180s at ever higher prices.  Panic would set in and 181 would drop like a stone.

How'd you get your hands on my diary?

[valiantman]

6 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

15 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

First Unknown Appearance

Nice posts comicginger - thanks for taking the time to put them together. There's nothing wrong with trying to categorise things in my view, and yours is a decent attempt. It's a long debated subject as you pointed out, and many will say it is already 'resolved', but I personally like to hear new takes on things. Or even old takes from new people.

I'm not keen on 'First Unknown Appearance'. That sounds odd to me, in a misnomery kind of way (is that a word? It is now). How about 'First Undisclosed Appearance'?

I was going to suggest 'First Undisclosed / Character Known' but that would just be childish, in an acronymic kind of way (is that a word....?)

@comicginger1789 This is good work!

I've been thinking along these lines for a while.  Cameo by definition is someone already known who is a "surprise" to be seen outside their normal area.

Glimpse seems like it could be useful instead of "cameo".

With-or-without the repeated word "appearance" and with-or-without the word "First" (although "Second" or "Early" could be used when applicable)...

If I can summarize your thoughts and include some of my own:

=============================

Prototype = early development, obvious similarity in qualities/appearance toward a later character (Foom #2 Wolverine)

Preview = seeing something before it's officially part of storytelling content. Works well for advertisements, early promotional/marketing "coming-soon"/"be-on-the-lookout" type material. (Malibu Sun #13 Spawn)

Glimpse = (instead of "cameo") very brief visible/obscured storytelling content of a yet-to-be-introduced character, teaser, generally builds the story toward a first appearance (Superman #73 Doomsday's punching fist).

Introduction = story content that introduces a character, clearly seen, often named, possible dialogue, just one or two pages, usually final page only. (Amazing Spider-Man #299 Venom, Hulk #180 Wolverine).

Full = a comic which establishes three or more pages of story development for a character for the first time. (Amazing Spider-Man #300 Venom, Hulk #181 Wolverine).

=============================

When a comic qualifies for more than one of the labels above (Prototype, Preview, Glimpse, Introduction, Full) then the preferred label should be the highest label (Full is best, Introduction is 2nd best, Glimpse (within a story) is 3rd, Preview (non-story) is 4th, Prototype is 5th).

=============================

Cover = a separate situation, may be a comic not already discussed, may be combined with Glimpse if obscured/shadows/crowded (Cover Glimpse - Amazing Spider-Man #315 Venom) or Full if completely featured as the main element on the cover (Full Cover - Amazing Spider-Man #316 Venom).  Harley Quinn on Batman Adventures #12 is a good example of the middle of this range of possibilities - more than a glimpse, less than a full cover. 

=============================

[Get Marwood & I]

Now we're motoring 

[Darth Floppy]

How would you catorigize Gwenpool?  From what I understand the cover appearance from Deadpool's Secret Secret wars was one of a series of variant covers using GWEN STACY in different costumes.  The Deadpool one went viral and an editor approached the artist to create a new character based on that cover.

Her first appearance in a comic as GWEN POOLE was in Howard the Duck #1. How would you reconcile which one is the first appearance?

[Get Marwood & I]

5 minutes ago, Darth Floppy said:

How would you catorigize Gwenpool?  From what I understand the cover appearance from Deadpool's Secret Secret wars was one of a series of variant covers using GWEN STACY in different costumes.  The Deadpool one went viral and an editor approached the artist to create a new character based on that cover.

Her first appearance in a comic as GWEN POOLE was in Howard the Duck #1. How would you reconcile which one is the first appearance?

That's a puzzler isn't it, Floppy 

Glimpsepool? 

Just stick 'pool' onto the end of whatever it is, that's what I reckon.

And full marks for being the furthest away from categorise as it's possible to be whilst still being identifiable as categorise 

[theCapraAegagrus]

Is there a Darth Solid lurking?

[comicginger1789]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

@comicginger1789 This is good work!

I've been thinking along these lines for a while.  Cameo by definition is someone already known who is a "surprise" to be seen outside their normal area.

Glimpse seems like it could be useful instead of "cameo".

With-or-without the repeated word "appearance" and with-or-without the word "First" (although "Second" or "Early" could be used when applicable)...

If I can summarize your thoughts and include some of my own:

=============================

Prototype = early development, obvious similarity in qualities/appearance toward a later character (Foom #2 Wolverine)

Preview = seeing something before it's officially part of storytelling content. Works well for advertisements, early promotional/marketing "coming-soon"/"be-on-the-lookout" type material. (Malibu Sun #13 Spawn)

Glimpse = (instead of "cameo") very brief visible/obscured storytelling content of a yet-to-be-introduced character, teaser, generally builds the story toward a first appearance (Superman #73 Doomsday's punching fist).

Introduction = story content that introduces a character, clearly seen, often named, possible dialogue, just one or two pages, usually final page only. (Amazing Spider-Man #299 Venom, Hulk #180 Wolverine).

Full = a comic which establishes three or more pages of story development for a character for the first time. (Amazing Spider-Man #300 Venom, Hulk #181 Wolverine).

=============================

When a comic qualifies for more than one of the labels above (Prototype, Preview, Glimpse, Introduction, Full) then the preferred label should be the highest label (Full is best, Introduction is 2nd best, Glimpse (within a story) is 3rd, Preview (non-story) is 4th, Prototype is 5th).

=============================

Cover = a separate situation, may be a comic not already discussed, may be combined with Glimpse if obscured/shadows/crowded (Cover Glimpse - Amazing Spider-Man #315 Venom) or Full if completely featured as the main element on the cover (Full Cover - Amazing Spider-Man #316 Venom).  Harley Quinn on Batman Adventures #12 is a good example of the middle of this range of possibilities - more than a glimpse, less than a full cover. 

=============================

YES!

I really like your wording. Glimpse is a great way to put it! I was starting to really dislike my terminology of "unknown" appearance.

The area that is stumping me now is a retcon appearance, which I despise. Something like Misty Knight being retconned to having her first app in MTU #1 for example. How to classify this is my latest thought. Perhaps a final appearance type called "retcon appearance" is all that is needed. Someone else other than the original artists and writers changed her first appearance to a random one in an earlier issue. This has happened to other characters too (Cable's baby appearance I believe would fall in this category?). Thoughts?

[comicginger1789]

52 minutes ago, Darth Floppy said:

How would you catorigize Gwenpool?  From what I understand the cover appearance from Deadpool's Secret Secret wars was one of a series of variant covers using GWEN STACY in different costumes.  The Deadpool one went viral and an editor approached the artist to create a new character based on that cover.

Her first appearance in a comic as GWEN POOLE was in Howard the Duck #1. How would you reconcile which one is the first appearance?

If her first ever appearance is a cover appearance, she this would be labelled "first cover appearance (predates first appearance)." Her actual "first appearance" would be the first time she is published in a story....Howard the Duck #1 Vol. 6 I believe.

[comicginger1789]

4 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

This is really good and really thought out.

How would you determine which one would be the most valuable appearance?

Well value is not my target here. It is simply what to call the darn things.

The value depends on the market. Can one really argue that the cover to Hulk 180 is better than 181? Nope. 181 gives you a first cover and a first full appearance. It's just a better looking book. Always has been and I believe it always will be.

Now, you may have a situation come up where a variant cover shows a character before they appear and the cover is awesome! Then, in their actual first appearance, you have a ho hum cover well....maybe it does not go for much. 

The label plays a role in determining value but it is not the sole factor. Issue number, cover and overall story play minor parts in adding to the value also. 

[valiantman]

Just now, comicginger1789 said:

4 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

This is really good and really thought out.

How would you determine which one would be the most valuable appearance?

Well value is not my target here. It is simply what to call the darn things.

Exactly.  The market fluctuates for value, but these terms for appearances shouldn't fluctuate.

They're definitely related (values and appearances), but can be defined separately.

[comicginger1789]

Yes and there should be some consistency in wording too I feel...

Calling Foom #2 a prototype for Wolverine seems correct

Calling Sgt. Rock's first appearance a prototype? Not so sure... I understand that the character is not quite developed but it seems they continued to work on it and turned a character into something else. Kind of like with Swamp Thing. They took an old, one shot story, revamped it and created a new variation. 

If I take a character that appeared once in the Gold or Silver Age and adapt it into something new and have a long running story, I dont think it is right to call my first appearance the definitive first appearance. 

[comicginger1789]

10 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Exactly.  The market fluctuates for value, but these terms for appearances shouldn't fluctuate.

They're definitely related (values and appearances), but can be defined separately.

Imagine Avengers #195 (the interior) had the cover #196 had. Guaranteed it would be the high money book and the only book worth having. You get a first cover and a first appearance. Issue #196 might also have a cover appearance but I bet it is not as valued. 

Would be neat to find an example like this, where the character appears for the first time and is on the cover BUT only featured in maybe 1-5 panels in the story...

[Lazyboy]

5 hours ago, Krishosein said:

5 hours ago, Hollywood1892 said:

This is really good and really thought out.

How would you determine which one would be the most valuable appearance?

The market. The demand and supply determine the value. 

Exactly. That's a completely separate issue and entirely up to the market.

[Lazyboy]

29 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

Imagine Avengers #195 (the interior) had the cover #196 had. Guaranteed it would be the high money book and the only book worth having. You get a first cover and a first appearance. Issue #196 might also have a cover appearance but I bet it is not as valued. 

Would be neat to find an example like this, where the character appears for the first time and is on the cover BUT only featured in maybe 1-5 panels in the story...

Uncanny X-Men 282. Bishop (and friends) as the feature on the cover, but only appear in one panel of the story. You have three guesses for which panel, and the first three don't count.

[sfcityduck]

18 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

 

As an English teacher, the thing that I feel is holding people up is the terminology behind it all. Surely there must be a way to classify all of these appearances in a way that is clear, concise and can accurately account for all of the variations that currently exist.

You lost me at hello.  I don't think you are using clear or simple language.  Instead, your labels appear to be a heightened form of dealer puffery.  

To illustrate a "First Prototype Appearance" you cite Foom 2 and Marvel Age 12.  Neither is a prototype.  Foom 2 has nothing to do with Wolverine.  It's just a bit of fan art.  No reason to believe that the actual creators of Wolverine even saw Foom 2, let alone were influenced by it.  Call it what it is:  fan art for a superhero idea called "Wolverine" which bears no relation or influence on the subsequent character Wolverine. 

And Marvel Age is a house ad.  Call it that.

To illustrate a "Preview Appearance" you cite ads.  They are ads.  Not preview appearances.  Why not just call it what it is:  An ad.  It may be cool that a comic has an ad for Action 1, but it is in no way a "preview appearance."  

"First Unknown Appearance" is oxymoronic.  A character does not appear until they appear.  The rest is just foreshadowing.

I do agree with you on First Appearance, First Full Appearance, and First Cover Appearance.  

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by sfcityduck

[Lazyboy]

16 hours ago, comicginger1789 said:

Constantine. Now there is a character with a messy first appearance.

Is it Swamp Thing 25, 37 or DC Sampler 3?

To my knowledge, no writer has ever come out and said “yes that one panel face in Swamp Thing 25 is Constantine.”  The fact that they look similar means nothing. This book is overvalued.

DC Sampler 3 is exactly that...a sampler! Thus it fits into my “first preview” appearance because we see a preview for an upcoming character.

Finally, Swamp Thing 37 showcases Constantine throughout. It is his first appearance. And that is the only designator that should be labelled for this issue. 

Since the creator has talked about the creation of the character and a character cannot appear before being created, Swamp Thing 37 is the only possible answer.

[Get Marwood & I]

11 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

You lost me at hello.  I don't think you are using clear or simple language.  Instead, your labels appear to be a heightened form of dealer puffery.  

The duck in your avatar - or 'Donald' as I believe he likes to be called - looks very annoyed. Are you very annoyed sfcityduck? You sound very annoyed. 

[sfcityduck]

53 minutes ago, comicginger1789 said:

 

Calling Foom #2 a prototype for Wolverine seems correct

Calling Sgt. Rock's first appearance a prototype? Not so sure... I understand that the character is not quite developed but it seems they continued to work on it and turned a character into something else. Kind of like with Swamp Thing. They took an old, one shot story, revamped it and created a new variation. 

 

WTF?  Foom 2 has nothing to do with Wolverine.  It's not a prototype of anything.

In contrast, GI Combat 68 ("The Rock" by Kanigher and Kubert), OAaW 81 ("The Rock of Easy Company" by Haney and Andru), and OAaW 82 ("Sgt. Rock" by Haney and Andr0) are all clearly prototypes which led up to OAaW 83 ("The Rock and the Wall" by Kanigher and Kubert) and DC recognizes that fact, putting all of those prototypes in Sgt. Rock Archives vol. 1.