Pedigree? Ohio? Update: Yes 1 1

[Cat-Man_America]

6 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

It was an old label holder, but it couldn't have been too early. It was slabbed for the Nic Cage auction that took place in October of 2002. 

Interesting point.  I don't remember the Nick Cage collection attribution on the earlier label, but the damage stood out.  That's what caught my immediate attention; it didn't appear to have a Barex envelope in the inner well.

I can still remember the pained expression on John's face as we tried to figure out what happened to the book.  

[jimbo_7071]

7 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

Interesting point.  I don't remember the Nick Cage collection attribution on the earlier label, but the damage stood out.  That's what caught my immediate attention; it didn't appear to have a Barex envelope in the inner well.

I can still remember the pained expression on John's face as we tried to figure out what happened to the book.  

You can see the book in its original slab here:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/catman-comics-26-mile-high-pedigree-holyoke-publications-1944-cgc-nm-92-white-pages-ferstadt-contributes-his-artistic/a/804-5126.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

I'd like to determine when CGC started securing books more carefully inside the inner well. Books slabbed before that date might be at risk. (I've considered hand-carrying my old-label books to Sarasota for re-holdering.)

[Badger]

22 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

John had the book re-holdered shortly after the discovery, sadly resulting in the drop in grade.  Apparently the damage occurred during normal transit.  He'd picked up the Church copy in high grade with other books and brought them by Casa del Gato for me to look through.  

The book was in one of the earliest CGC holders.  Neither of us were aware of any problem with that design.  I discovered the problem and pointed it out to John.  He was shocked and surprised by it.  Based on what I was observing, there was no envelope or physical barrier in place to prevent a book from sliding around in the inner well. This wasn't an anticipatable risk, because most of the time books appear to be clamped or inside a close fitting Barex envelope.  I have no idea when the inner envelope was introduced to the early label holders, probably within the first year or two, but earlier encapsulated books apparently floated freely in the inner well presumably held in place by the inner surface of the well and that's where the increased risk comes into play.  

While I like early CGC labels and the MkII second series labels, I'd suggest to all owners of books with the earliest style labels examine their books closely to determine how they're secured inside the inner well.  Those that are held in place by the under surface but otherwise float freely within the inner well are at risk ...especially for damage in transit... if there's a gap between books and the right/left sides of the inner well.  Single staple WWII books are especially vulnerable.  To reiterate: what can happen is that interior pages can yield to gravitational forces moving from side to side while covers are held in place by modest top/bottom pressure, resulting in serious staple pulls.  That's how a 9.2 can morph into a 7.5, ...and Church books aren't immune!

Thanks for this explanation and story, Cat! I appreciate it when the elite collectors share both the back story and the cautionary warning.  

[lou_fine]

3 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

You can see the book in its original slab here:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/catman-comics-26-mile-high-pedigree-holyoke-publications-1944-cgc-nm-92-white-pages-ferstadt-contributes-his-artistic/a/804-5126.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

I'd like to determine when CGC started securing books more carefully inside the inner well. Books slabbed before that date might be at risk. (I've considered hand-carrying my old-label books to Sarasota for re-holdering.)

Although it was 10 years later, still interesting to note that it had sold for more (i.e. $1,673) as a CGC 7.5 graded copy in February of 2013 at a bigger multiple of 3.35X condition guide, as compared to a price of only $1,322.50 back in the Fall of 2022 or at a slightly lower multiple of under 2.8X top of Overstreet guide when it was a CGC 9.2 graded copy.  

Looks like John didn't end up losing any money on the book even with the damage incurred to it.  

[RedGiant]

13 minutes ago, Badger said:

Thanks for this explanation and story, Cat! I appreciate it when the elite collectors share both the back story and the cautionary warning.  

Completely agree.  Love to hear stories/history. 

[Cat-Man_America]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Although it was 10 years later, still interesting to note that it had sold for more (i.e. $1,673) as a CGC 7.5 graded copy in February of 2013 at a bigger multiple of 3.35X condition guide, as compared to a price of only $1,322.50 back in the Fall of 2022 or at a slightly lower multiple of under 2.8X top of Overstreet guide when it was a CGC 9.2 graded copy.  

Looks like John didn't end up losing any money on the book even with the damage incurred to it.  

I think you mean 2002.  John profiting from the book is probable, but it may have changed hands one or more times in the interim.  Also, we shouldn’t disregard inflation.  Premium prices for high grade pedigreed books have skyrocketed.

My impression was that John had just acquired the book from another collector when offered to me.  In fact, both things could be true.  It’s entirely possible that JV acquired Nick Cage’s Church Cat-Man #26 in 2002 through the Heritage auction, then flipped it and reacquired it later.  What’s less likely is that he bought the book and then sat on it for over ten years.

John assumed the old label Church book was still 9.2 as graded when he brought it out of his short box for my consideration. The damaged condition of the book was a shock to us both.  Obviously negotiation was impossible because the 9.2 ship had sailed.

 

3 hours ago, RedGiant said:

Completely agree.  Love to hear stories/history. 

Much appreciated. Thanks guys...

[Bronty]

On 12/29/2019 at 1:48 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Interesting point.  I don't remember the Nick Cage collection attribution on the earlier label, but the damage stood out.  That's what caught my immediate attention; it didn't appear to have a Barex envelope in the inner well.

I can still remember the pained expression on John's face as we tried to figure out what happened to the book.  

I had a hulk 1 encapsulated the same way once.   I had no problems, but that type of encapsulation was definitely not a one off.    The hulk was one of the earliest books graded at cgc (first three months for sure).

[jimbo_7071]

41 minutes ago, Bronty said:

I had a hulk 1 encapsulated the same way once.   I had no problems, but that type of encapsulation was definitely not a one off.    The hulk was one of the earliest books graded at cgc (first three months for sure).

The Catman 26 had the Nic Cage label; I wonder if it could have been slabbed back in 2000 and then gotten a new label and outer shell without the inner well being replaced.

This book was slabbed 02/03/2001, more than a year after CGC opened, and it can slide around inside the inner well. It doesn't appear to have sustained any damage, but I sure wouldn't want to mail it in to be reholdered. I'd have to hand carry it to Sarasota.

[Cat-Man_America]

11 hours ago, jimbo_7071 said:

The Catman 26 had the Nic Cage label; I wonder if it could have been slabbed back in 2000 and then gotten a new label and outer shell without the inner well being replaced.

This book was slabbed 02/03/2001, more than a year after CGC opened, and it can slide around inside the inner well. It doesn't appear to have sustained any damage, but I sure wouldn't want to mail it in to be reholdered. I'd have to hand carry it to Sarasota.

Yeah, that's a book I'd hand carry if considering a re-holder.  Sliding (by itself) isn't the only factor here though.  John's Church copy Cat-Man #26 probably suffered catastrophic bad luck from a combination of issues contributing to the damage: 1) no inner envelope, 2) a gap allowing side to side movement & ...most critically... 3) just enough pressure from the holder on the book's spine when g-forces were applied for interior pages to move independently.  

In my estimation, this scenario creates a "perfect storm" for staple-pull risk.  

Edited December 31, 2019 by Cat-Man_America

[RedGiant]

Happy New Year!  Thanks for the stories - love this kind of stuff. Book arrived. Will scan later but in meantime I have this pic. 

Edited January 2, 2020 by RedGiant

[manetteska]

On 1/2/2020 at 1:28 PM, RedGiant said:

Happy New Year!  Thanks for the stories - love this kind of stuff. Book arrived. Will scan later but in meantime I have this pic. 

Before sending to CGC did you count the pages? I remember there were conflicting counts depending on which website one visited. 

[RedGiant]

2 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Before sending to CGC did you count the pages? I remember there were conflicting counts depending on which website one visited. 

I did. 52. 

[manetteska]

37 minutes ago, RedGiant said:

I did. 52. 

Nice. Mine has 52 but GCD says 68.

[RedGiant]

8 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Nice. Mine has 52 but GCD says 68.

Yeah. I saw that thread when I was researching book.  Seems 52 it is. Wonder if there are 2 versions (Canadian?) or if GCD is just a mistake?

Edited January 12, 2020 by RedGiant

[lou_fine]

26 minutes ago, RedGiant said:

28 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Nice. Mine has 52 but GCD says 68.

Yeah. I saw that thread when I was researching book.  Seems 52 it is. Wonder if there are 2 versions (Canadian?) or if GCD is just a mistake?

Looks like it is just a mstake in the GCD Summary Total Page Count header when it says 68 pages.  

If you add up the individual story pages in the GCD Database, it adds up to only 48 interior pages which then would come to a total of 52 pages if you add in the cover pages.  

[RedGiant]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Looks like it is just a mstake in the GCD Summary Total Page Count header when it says 68 pages.  

If you add up the individual story pages in the GCD Database, it adds up to only 48 interior pages which then would come to a total of 52 pages if you add in the cover pages.  

Figured. Just sometimes with GAs it’s hard to know for sure. Like Manhunt 12 not believed to exist and now 70 years later 2 have surfaced just recently. 

[sagii]

On 1/2/2020 at 2:28 PM, RedGiant said:

Happy New Year!  Thanks for the stories - love this kind of stuff. Book arrived. Will scan later but in meantime I have this pic. 

Nice, congrats @RedGiant!

So it looks like they are going with the variation on the Black label after all? On their site it says the Gold Label is the Ped label though.

Either way, i was a fan of both. 

Edited January 13, 2020 by sagii