New Pulp Books & References 4 4

[waaaghboss]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:50 AM, Robot Man said:

Frankly, it makes zero sense to put out a printed “price guide” any more. The market for comics is a real roller coaster especially if the past few years. The pulp market is even worse. Dealers and collectors have been smelling blood in the waters ever since CGC announced the plans to grade them. No one knows where the market will eventually end up. At the moment the sky seems to be the limit. Folks are grabbing everything they can with zero knowledge of what they are buying.

I look at the Overstreet and Bookery guides as informational tools and ignore the prices. They are both the best factual tools available for artist and writers and dating. Invaluable for collectors.

Pulps have ALWAYS been the great unknown. Most have been closely guarded secrets by collectors. MUCH more rare than comics. I have “accumulated” them for 40 years and am constantly suprised by amazing cover finds. Will they ever be worth what comics are? I don’t believe so but a fun challenge to hunt down!

Now, if someone were to do a “Gerber” book of covers…

Yah it's mostly just a great resource for me.   What I really like is the rarity notations.   If I'm looking at 2 books and one is scarce and the other is common, I go for the rarer issue figuring the common boom is more likely to pop up for sale again at a later date.

[Cat-Man_America]

On 11/9/2023 at 9:50 AM, Robot Man said:

Frankly, it makes zero sense to put out a printed “price guide” any more. The market for comics is a real roller coaster especially if the past few years. The pulp market is even worse. Dealers and collectors have been smelling blood in the waters ever since CGC announced the plans to grade them. No one knows where the market will eventually end up. At the moment the sky seems to be the limit. Folks are grabbing everything they can with zero knowledge of what they are buying.

I look at the Overstreet and Bookery guides as informational tools and ignore the prices. They are both the best factual tools available for artist and writers and dating. Invaluable for collectors.

Pulps have ALWAYS been the great unknown. Most have been closely guarded secrets by collectors. MUCH more rare than comics. I have “accumulated” them for 40 years and am constantly suprised by amazing cover finds. Will they ever be worth what comics are? I don’t believe so but a fun challenge to hunt down!

Now, if someone were to do a “Gerber” book of covers…

Agree completely on a Gerber-style Book of Pulp covers; m'thinks it would be a Herculean task, but well rewarded.  That said, a major paper-based Guide is probably needed every so often as a basis for ball-park pricing given the rapid increase in values in recent years; this is far from "zero sense" in my estimation and less of an unknown now than a few years ago.

Published paper Guides provide a tangible reference source that both collectors and dealers can go to quickly and rely upon for basic values and pricing estimates. IMO, pulp prices haven't been on a roller coaster, they've been on a multi-stage rocket ascent. While values may level off at some point, pulps will likely achieve a low orbit and remain there, eventually sharing popularity with GA comics where cover art has always been king.

 

[Robot Man]

On 11/9/2023 at 11:26 AM, Cat-Man_America said:

Agree completely on a Gerber-style Book of Pulp covers; m'thinks it would be a Herculean task, but well rewarded.  That said, a major paper-based Guide is probably needed every so often as a basis for ball-park pricing given the rapid increase in values in recent years; this is far from "zero sense" in my estimation and less of an unknown now than a few years ago.

Published paper Guides provide a tangible reference source that both collectors and dealers can go to quickly and rely upon for basic values and pricing estimates. IMO, pulp prices haven't been on a roller coaster, they've been on a multi-stage rocket ascent. While values may level off at some point, pulps will likely achieve a low orbit and remain there, eventually sharing popularity with GA comics where cover art has always been king.

 

Once a pulp is slabbed all you will be left with is the cover. There are pulp cover collectors, pulp writer collectors and some who collect both. For the most part, I have always mostly been the first category.

Pulp covers for especially horror, crime, sci fi and GGA often rival many of their comic book cover contemporaries. More “adult” in nature, and often way more weird and graphic. Once slabbed, they just become a commodity.

There are and probably always be more comic collectors than pulp collectors. Although prices will (and have been) surging with hg slabbed examples, I still don’t see many of them achieve comic prices. 

[Darwination]

On 11/8/2023 at 11:11 AM, Bookery said:

Technically, there have been "3" editions.  The first was titled "Bookery's Ultimate Guide to the Pulps" (2001) and was quite a bit thicker than later editions, as it listed a number of titles with issue by issue lists.  "Bookery's Guide to the Pulps" came out in 2005.  As printing costs rose, it became necessary to slim the book down a bit, and so non-"key" issues were grouped into runs, much like Overstreet.  Since by this time issue-by-issue content and photos were available at Galactic Central, I didn't see a need to re-invent the wheel.  What Galactic Central doesn't include is (besides prices, of course) is info on author's 1st appearances, which stories are "key" or historical, and other data (beyond story title and author) that may be of interest to collectors.  The Bookery Guides are the only consolidated source for that info.  Heritage dubbed the last edition of the Bookery Guide (2020) as the 2nd edition, and as I said, even I can't obtain copies beyond my own personal one.

The 2005 Guide shows up with dealers and on eBay from time to time.  It's prices are absurdly outdated, but the data is still pretty good (I added more info for the 2020 release, and corrected errors and typos, but most of the data is still good on the old one).  As for publishing another edition, I'm not sure.  I still work on it (if for no other reason I still need it updated for my own use).  I've improved (yet again I think) the format slightly, and of course, have made additions and corrections.  But it represents 30 years of work, and the last release was certainly a bit of a disappointment (despite Heritage doing a great job with the design and layout).  I'm not in a position to self-publish it anymore... way too time-consuming with shipping.  If I make enough updates for myself that I essentially have a whole new guide put together anyway (which is what happened with the 2001 one), I may consider it... though in this digital age I'm not sure there's much appetite for publishing physical reference books that are never going to really pay off financially for the publisher.  

I wonder if you ever consider a digital edition?  The search-ability is a plus, you can use all the color you want, the price of production is only your labor, and it would never go out of print, only out of date. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.  Even a subscription service is an option if the price is right.

Also, I wonder if your assessment of scarcity of various titles changes over time? 

I've always admired your guide not so much as a guide to costs (and who could even make an accurate price guide in the market like it is now, it is NUTS) but as reference on scarcity and on where to find certain authors or classic covers.  The slab crowd is a very, very different crowd from pulp lovers of old who are readers first and foremost, so I see a big shift happening (and once again bemoan the whole idea of books getting stuck in slabs).

Edited November 10, 2023 by Darwination

[Bookery]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:56 AM, Darwination said:

I wonder if you ever consider a digital edition?  The search-ability is a plus, you can use all the color you want, the price of production is only your labor, and it would never go out of print, only out of date. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.  Even a subscription service is an option if the price is right.

This has been brought up a few times over the years, but I personally have no idea how to do this.  The problem is with protecting copyright.  Even my 2nd bound edition was scanned (by a person who was on these boards at the time, no less) and put on the internet for free.  Judging by the downloads it got, I'm guessing it cost me a couple of hundred sales.  I would think a digital version would be even easier to swipe.  On the other hand.... there's no real profit to be made on a reference book anyway, so I've pondered just putting it out there for free.  But even then, there's a danger in someone downloading the data, altering the pricing, and using it to fool buyers or sellers.  I would have to pay someone to set it all up, attach it to my website (or start a new one), make sure it's secure (if that's even possible)... all of which would require putting even more money into it, which makes little sense especially if its made free.  I never expected it to make money as a book, but I figured it might at least help drive collections my way.  It never did.  It just ended up making info available to eBay sellers and auction houses, which is where the vast majority of pulps are now being sold.

On 11/10/2023 at 11:56 AM, Darwination said:

Also, I wonder if your assessment of scarcity of various titles changes over time?

Surprisingly, that data seems to have held up pretty well.  The pulps I identified as being scarce 20 years ago, still turn up less frequently than surrounding issues of titles.  I thought with more attention on pulps, and maybe more issues coming onto market because of it, the perceived scarcity levels might change... but I haven't seen that happening.

On 11/10/2023 at 11:56 AM, Darwination said:

I've always admired your guide not so much as a guide to costs (and who could even make an accurate price guide in the market like it is now, it is NUTS) but as reference on scarcity and on where to find certain authors or classic covers.  The slab crowd is a very, very different crowd from pulp lovers of old who are readers first and foremost, so I see a big shift happening (and once again bemoan the whole idea of books getting stuck in slabs).

I'm not anti-slab by any means, but I'm not personally a big fan.  However, I actually see less of a "problem" slabbing pulps than comics.  With comics, you are missing out on all of that interior art and story, and there are hundreds (thousands?) of comics that will never be reprinted.  But with pulps, pretty much every significant author and story has been reprinted, often many times.  There is no trouble finding anything you want to read by Chandler, Hammett, Lovecraft, Howard, Bradbury, Derleth, L'Amour, Bloch, etc., etc.  Almost all of science-fiction that appeared in the pulps has been reprinted, save for a few authors who are probably too dated and hackneyed to be of interest to modern readers anyway.  The hero pulps have all been reprinted.  And original pulps are often difficult if not unpleasant to try to read and flip through.  So in many ways, pulps are actually even better candidates for slabbing than comics, especially now that it appears the overwhelming interest in pulps is for the cover art. 

[Darwination]

Yeah, I don't know how selling a digital edition would work.  Protecting a digital edition's copyright (and less face it any copyright) these days is impossible.  Overstreet's subscription method is a workaround on this (as is something like subscription Photoshop), but I imagine determined hackers can bypass even those methods.  However, simply having an avenue for people to pay for a digital product means that most people will be happy to do it (Bandcamp's a service I use for music - putting money directly in a living artist's pocket? yes, please).  Your guide is a niche production but maybe has a new demand (especially from the gottdamn speculators).  I get that it's a very small pond, though. 

As for the fiction, I totally disagree.  Yes, the big names in fiction get reprints, but there's oceans of (often overlooked) fiction that's still only available in the actual magazines.  Still, I get what you are saying.  Pulps stink.  They fall apart.  Pulp flakes all over the bed make wifey unhappy.  Handling expensive ones can be uncomfortable.  If I have a good scan of a comic or pulp, slabbing it would be much easier. 

I do have a question for you, though, since you've been in the business of pulp.  Do you think it's a good time right now to unload collections or do you think the prices will just keep going up?  I know if I was an old timer with boxes and boxes of pulp looking to move to Florida and part with possessions that it'd seem like a great opportunity. 

By the way, I get a HUGE kick out of watching the Heritage auctions right now and comparing your notes there to the results of said auction (and it's not even about the prices)  

Edited November 10, 2023 by Darwination

[MattTheDuck]

You'd have to charge a "subscription fee" like GPA does.  Seems like there's a market for it.

[Bookery]

On 11/10/2023 at 4:19 PM, Darwination said:

I do have a question for you, though, since you've been in the business of pulp.  Do you think it's a good time right now to unload collections or do you think the prices will just keep going up?  I know if I was an old timer with boxes and boxes of pulp looking to move to Florida and part with possessions that it'd seem like a great opportunity. 

As always with selling, it depends upon one's situation.  Pulps shot up enormously through the combination of pandemic monies (like all collectibles) and the promise of imminent slabbing (a similar surge in comics prices occurred soon after CGC came into existence).  I have seen, however, a slipping back of prices in certain areas (Shadows and Docs have dropped in recent auctions, and they never moved up as much as other pulps to begin with).  Some prices on common pulps are certainly irrational exuberance.  On the other hand, I haven't checked out this week's auctions yet, but from what's been posted here, it looks like maybe they got another boost from the release of slab photos.  I don't know that prices can speed along as they have because I think the anticipation of slabbing has already been factored in, but rarities (and there are a lot of them with pulps) which have meager sales records are up for grabs when they do show up at auction.

The retirement scenario you cite above is probably not uncommon.  But it makes no sense for someone in that position to worry about trying to "time" the market for maximum value.  Chances are they bought these pulps years and decades ago, so up or down, these pulps are now mostly worth multiples of what they paid.  If I was retiring to Florida and could raise a couple of hundred thousand by selling off a collection I'd rather not transport to begin with, I think the 5% CD interest right now would make a nice bonus to whatever other retirement income I had coming in.  I sold off my Centaur collection about 20 years ago.  It would be worth many times now over what I got had I kept them.  Did I lose money?  Who knows, because that money would have been reinvested in other things over time.  Maybe I lost by selling them then, or maybe I gained, because I have no way of tracking how that money was spent over those years.  If I hadn't sold valuable comics and books back then, I wouldn't have bought the two buildings I did, which are now fully paid off, and will someday form the basis of my own retirement when I sell them.

[Robot Man]

Well said and makes good sense. Many, many years ago, I sold off most of my big GA keys to buy my first house for my family. I sold off a lot of SA keys for my kid’s college educations. Both were much more important and worthy investments. I have since replaced many of the ones I felt important.

I am now comfortably retired. Mostly due to smart real estate flipping, 401K and prudent stock investing as well as eliminating debt.

Along the way, I have accumulated a very large collection of “objects”. At this point, I don’t really need the money but have been selling off a lot of stuff that just isn’t as important to me to mainly downsize. I have made a handsome profit on nearly everything.

I love the stuff and the memories I have made along the way. But, I don’t miss what I have sold.

Nothing worse than to sell something you really love for mere money. The piece is gone and usually the money is gone as well leaving you with nothing but regret.

[Darwination]

Yeah, I've been selling some of my meager stuffs (2 kids in college, went from feeling set up in life to something else entirely) and am amazed at how little I miss the books (even if they are books I liked enough to buy in the first place). 

The amazing thing is how the regret hits and what I decide not to sell in the first place.  Almost everything I'm choosing to keep is for sentimental reasons (WW2 comics that remind me of my granddad, sports pulps that remind me of my son, romances with covers that remind me of girls my wife) and has nothing to do with value. When a book goes for under value, it sucks, but as a collector I try to operate on the flipside of that coin myself, so all's fair.

It takes a lot of time, though!  I've just scratched the surface, and my goal of turning 40 boxes into 10 doesn't even seem to have hit the one box mark yet.  I understand a lot better why people sell their collections en masse to dealers at what would seem severely cut values now.  Not to mention having a "storefront," real or digital, means they will just charge the price they want and sit on books and be patient about it.

I'm getting why people send their books to Heritage, too, as it's pretty damn tempting to send them a box of pulps right now

I also get that timing the market isn't so much a thing and that people shed their collections when it's time in their life and not a good time in the market.  Still, that pulp tree seems to be shaking right now, it's been a fun few years just getting to see books even if I win few and far between

[Robot Man]

On 11/11/2023 at 9:28 AM, Darwination said:

Yeah, I've been selling some of my meager stuffs (2 kids in college, went from feeling set up in life to something else entirely) and am amazed at how little I miss the books (even if they are books I liked enough to buy in the first place). 

The amazing thing is how the regret hits and what I decide not to sell in the first place.  Almost everything I'm choosing to keep is for sentimental reasons (WW2 comics that remind me of my granddad, sports pulps that remind me of my son, romances with covers that remind me of girls my wife) and has nothing to do with value. When a book goes for under value, it sucks, but as a collector I try to operate on the flipside of that coin myself, so all's fair.

It takes a lot of time, though!  I've just scratched the surface, and my goal of turning 40 boxes into 10 doesn't even seem to have hit the one box mark yet.  I understand a lot better why people sell their collections en masse to dealers at what would seem severely cut values now.  Not to mention having a "storefront," real or digital, means they will just charge the price they want and sit on books and be patient about it.

I'm getting why people send their books to Heritage, too, as it's pretty damn tempting to send them a box of pulps right now

I also get that timing the market isn't so much a thing and that people shed their collections when it's time in their life and not a good time in the market.  Still, that pulp tree seems to be shaking right now, it's been a fun few years just getting to see books even if I win few and far between

Pulps seem to be a carp shoot right now.  Everybody is smelling blood in the water. Many big dealers are scooping up everything they can grab without knowledge of them. Those of us who have been in the pool for years, have a good working knowledge of what is truly rare but many do not. Are these more common pulps worth these prices? I don’t think so. But, I am very happy to take their money.

Long term? I think now is a bear market. But no one knows for sure. I suspect we will see this for a while and prices will settle down like the comic market is currently experiencing. Just my 2 centavos…