Silver Surfer 4 CGC 9.8 white

[nik]

Stupid money comes to mind.

[whomerjay]

Now, of course, I think a bit differently, and basically consider a 9.8 distinction (or 9.9 or 10.0 for that matter) to be little more than a way to grant common books the illusion of scarcity. It's a fantastic business tool, essentially. I'm even a little skeptical about the 9.6 distinction...I tend to believe that 9.4 should be the cutoff (but hey, I acknowledge that I don't make the rules), though I'm not yet freaking out about it to the point where I'm selling my 9.6s. But who knows, that day may come, too.

 

So that's why I think buying a book like this SS#4 is a terrible decision, because I don't consider myself a genius and eventually more people will come to the conclusion I have come to, solely through experience with books of this type.

 

 

Although I agree with the idea that little distinguishes a typical 9.6 from a 9.8 and the difference in going prices is not warranted, I don't agree that a sufficient # of people will come to that conclusion and significantly reduce the gap, at least on certain books including the SS4 we're talking about here. The top census book (even if "tied" with 10 others) of a classic cover is always going to command a premium. Now if we're talking New Mutants 1, yes I could give two shts about whether I had a 9.8 or a 9.6 (or any copy for that matter), and for most ASMs 1-50 (arguably the most sought after group of books) I would also be less willing to pay a lot more for a 9.8.

 

Also, I should mention I've seen some BA/CA 9.6's that should have been 9.2's or 9.0's (multiple spine creases) and wondered WTF CGC was thinking as I stared at some other, flawless 9.6s.

[shrunkenhead]

For the sake of those who continue to buy such books, I hope you're right. And who knows, 10 years from now I may be sorely kicking myself for selling off all my "highest graded" copies. It's not improbable.

 

But regardless of how CGC and the marketplace fare in this regard in the years to come, I will still feel the same way. I've had these books in my hand, I've inspected them as best as anyone can in a slab, and I don't see enough consistent difference to satisfy the prices paid. So while it will be a matter of time to see what the market will bear, my own sensibilities are not going to change back on this one.

[whomerjay]

For the sake of those who continue to buy such books, I hope you're right. And who knows, 10 years from now I may be sorely kicking myself for selling off all my "highest graded" copies. It's not improbable.

 

But regardless of how CGC and the marketplace fare in this regard in the years to come, I will still feel the same way. I've had these books in my hand, I've inspected them as best as anyone can in a slab, and I don't see enough consistent difference to satisfy the prices paid. So while it will be a matter of time to see what the market will bear, my own sensibilities are not going to change back on this one.

 

IMO you feel this way because you are a collector first.

 

I would PREFER that more people had your take on the 9.8's, which will only happen, I think, if the pure speculator/investor presence wanes in the comic market. Because most people buy the 9.8 based on its investment value, if that disappears then the investor disappears. What's left are collectors who know the real value of a 9.8 and a 9.6, and the gap closes.

 

But I'm not sure we'll see that with certain books. Just like Dutch Masters paintings, I think there is always going to be an allure, and an expanded market, for buying certain books that are top census. Admittedly, SS4 is probably the youngest book (1969?) that might fall into this category, perhaps some would argue the top census GS X-Men 1 or Xmen94. Certainly not Hulk 181.

 

I admit I'm somewhat biased about classic covers, and tend to use slightly different criteria when ascribing value to such books.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Because most people buy the 9.8 based on its investment value, if that disappears then the investor disappears. What's left are collectors who know the real value of a 9.8 and a 9.6, and the gap closes.

 

Um..if the investors disappear, then the few true collectors that remain won't need to compete over paying top dollar because the market will be flooded with books to purchase. Whose going to pay top dollar for a 9.8, when 9.2s and 9.4s are being sold for kindling on eBay?

 

I think anyone paying top shelf dough for 9.8s with dreams of big returns hasn't seen what's been going on in the market the last 2-3 years.

[whomerjay]

again I agree and that would effect a great many books. If you look at the sports card market that is exactly what happened, EXCEPT for the most highly sought after cards, where these cards in top grade survived the crash.

 

My point remains that certain books will be somewhat resistant to the impending deflation of 9.8/top census books.

 

Also, there are very few PURE collectors and most of us want the book but also take the attitude "I can afford to pay because if I must I can sell the book for close to what I paid" or "I'll pay more than what I truly think this book is worth because the market for this book will probably stay unrealistically high". Also. a fair # of folks on this board admit buying and selling for the purpose of raising $s for books they want to buy for their collections.

 

So investment potential usually creaps in to the decision making process when most of us "collectors" buy books.

[sfilosa]

I think anyone paying top shelf dough for 9.8s with dreams of big returns hasn't seen what's been going on in the market the last 2-3 years.

 

 

While I could be wrong, on a book like this, I believe only a collector would pay that type of money. Yes, maybe a few years from now that collector decides that 9.8's aren't worth it or even gets out of comic collecting altogether.

 

But I would be very surprised if there are many dealers / investors buying these books hoping for long term returns. Quick flip, maybe, long term, probably not.

 

If I was buying 9.8's, I'd definitely focus on early BA books from pedigree collections where you can still get them for less then a hundred bucks (and no, I'm not the person picking up all the Winnipegs off of Doug's site). Not guarantying these are great investments, but much easier to see that book selling for $150-200 a few years from now. Plus, even if the census grows on that book some, there are still plenty of buyers that can afford $150-200 and the pedigree allure will help differeniate one 9.8 from the next.

[1962]

I totally agree. The only person I can see picking up this book for this kind of money would be a collector. From a speculation point of view I cannot see anyone making any money on this book for a great number of years. If it was the only 9.8 maybe, but there is already 5 9.8's and considering that it is a late Silver book I am sure that more 9.8's will be slabbed in the future thereby watering down the value of the other 9.8's.

[Silver Surfer]

Well if I had to own just one SA book long-term this would be one. Since pressing is not normally done on square bounds the chances of a 9.9 showing up are terribly remote and this does have white pages. This book should be in a display case in the front entrance of someone's home as even a non-comic lover would appreciate its beauty.

[LordRahl]

Seriously, paying thousands more for a "9.8" is just stupid. Yes, I said it, stupid. Time for a wakeup call. 9.6s and 9.8s are in the same shape. There is no difference, there never has been a difference, and there never will be a difference. Why pay more for the illusion of higher quality? It's label chasing at it's most obscene.

 

Why do people trot out this lame argument every time when discussing the difference in price between a 9.4 and 9.6/9.8? Why do people buy Ferrari's when they could buy a (insert cheap sports car here)? Why do people buy Diesel jeans when Levi's can be had for a quarter of the price? Why buy a 4 carat diamond when 1 carat would be sufficient? Status symbols are a part of our society. Are 9.8's a status thing? To some, probably. It might not be your thing, that does not make it "stupid". Yes there are label chasers out there, just because that's not how you collect does not invalidate the way they collect. You don't see too many label chasers knocking people for collecting low/mid grade when they may very well consider it a "stupid" way of collecting.

[october]

Seriously, paying thousands more for a "9.8" is just stupid. Yes, I said it, stupid. Time for a wakeup call. 9.6s and 9.8s are in the same shape. There is no difference, there never has been a difference, and there never will be a difference. Why pay more for the illusion of higher quality? It's label chasing at it's most obscene.

 

Why do people trot out this lame argument every time when discussing the difference in price between a 9.4 and 9.6/9.8? Why do people buy Ferrari's when they could buy a (insert cheap sports car here)? Why do people buy Diesel jeans when Levi's can be had for a quarter of the price? Why buy a 4 carat diamond when 1 carat would be sufficient? Status symbols are a part of our society. Are 9.8's a status thing? To some, probably. It might not be your thing, that does not make it "stupid". Yes there are label chasers out there, just because that's not how you collect does not invalidate the way they collect. You don't see too many label chasers knocking people for collecting low/mid grade when they may very well consider it a "stupid" way of collecting.

 

Sorry, those are poor analogies. A Ferrari is objectively better than a cheaper car, they have better quality and better craftsmanship, same with diamonds. My point wasn't that people shouldn't pay for better quality, rather that slabbed 9.8 AREN'T better quality. If you want to delude yourself and continue to believe that 9.8s are somehow superior to 9.6s, other than the label they sport, that's fine. But don't try and tell me that 9.8s are "better" than 9.6s in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. How many resubs and inconsitent grades will it take for people to wake up and realize that these grade differences aren't just subtle, they are a total illusion? I am not knocking high grade collecting, but I am saying it's stupid to pay big dollars for arbitrary, illusory "defferences" in high grade books. How is that hard to understand? Paying twice as much for the same book isn't stupid just because some label says there is a difference between the two? Whatever you say...

 

 

BTW, why do people always trot out the lame defense that it's "their way of collecting" every time someone points out the inconsitencies in the high grade slab game? Since when is personal preference a valid rationale for objective stupidity? Sure, people are free to spend their money in any way they choose. That doesn't change the fact that the emperor has no clothes.

[shrunkenhead]

Since when is personal preference a valid rationale for objective stupidity?

 

I love that! Copied and pasted into my little wordfile of random quotations.

[shrunkenhead]

And for the record, I don't mean to make fun of 9.8 collectors. I simply consider place them in two categories:

 

1) They have not come to the realizations I came to when I was buying 9.8s. Give them time.

 

2) It is label-chasing, a status thing for such folks, and will remain thus, regardless of a book's actual quality. So be it.

[october]

Since when is personal preference a valid rationale for objective stupidity?

 

I love that! Copied and pasted into my little wordfile of random quotations.

 

[LordRahl]

I'm not saying that there are appreciable differences between 9.6 and 9.8. I AM saying that it's label chasing and a status symbol. My point is that there is nothing wrong with label chasing and I don't understand why you knock it just because it's something you don't personally do. And my analogies are just fine, I notice you don't have anything to say about my jeans analogy. Just why do people pay $200 and up for Diesel jeans? People are judgmental of others in many things, including how they spend their money. Which is exactly what you're doing. No less stupid than what I or others choose to spend money on.

[october]

My failure to address the jeans analogy is due to my ignorance of how jeans are made and how long those last when compared with other brands, not because I think it's a good analogy.

 

I am not just knocking label chasing because it's not something I personally do. I knock it because a lot of the time it makes zero sense. If that makes me judgmental that's fine.

[drbanner]

My point wasn't that people shouldn't pay for better quality, rather that slabbed 9.8 AREN'T better quality. If you want to delude yourself and continue to believe that 9.8s are somehow superior to 9.6s, other than the label they sport, that's fine. But don't try and tell me that 9.8s are "better" than 9.6s in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

And you know that 9.8's are not better than 9.6's how? I have personally submitted hundreds of raw books to CGC and I can assure you that 90% of the 9.8's out there are better than 90% of the 9.6's. Sure the price difference is crazy, and sure there are cases of some 9.6's better than some 9.8's, but to say that 9.8s are "not better" than 9.6s is not accurate, at all.

 

Sorry man, but I'm just real tired of hearing that "9.x's are no better than 9.(x - 0.2)'s" when it seems the real point people that say that are trying to make is that they don't feel the price difference is worth it. From what you've said about your collecting habits, you surely fall into that camp, right?

[october]

My point wasn't that people shouldn't pay for better quality, rather that slabbed 9.8 AREN'T better quality. If you want to delude yourself and continue to believe that 9.8s are somehow superior to 9.6s, other than the label they sport, that's fine. But don't try and tell me that 9.8s are "better" than 9.6s in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

And you know that 9.8's are not better than 9.6's how? I have personally submitted hundreds of raw books to CGC and I can assure you that 90% of the 9.8's out there are better than 90% of the 9.6's. Sure the price difference is crazy, and sure there are cases of some 9.6's better than some 9.8's, but to say that 9.8s are "not better" than 9.6s is not accurate, at all.

 

Sorry man, but I'm just real tired of hearing that "9.x's are no better than 9.(x - 0.2)'s" when it seems the real point people that say that are trying to make is that they don't feel the price difference is worth it. From what you've said about your collecting habits, you surely fall into that camp, right?

 

Yep, no doubt I fall into that camp.

 

Can you honestly tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, side by side, 90% of the time? If you can I am impressed. I have seen plenty of 9.6 and 9.8 slabs and the differences weren't apparent to me AT ALL most of the time...and I do know how to grade. In fact, it seems to me that people on this board, who submit thousands of books, aren't particularly accurate in predicting CGC grades either. If grading is that subjective, who is to say that a 1/32" stress mark is ok in 9.8, but a 1/16" is not? If the difference between those two grades is apparent 90% of the time, defects and their effect on grade shouldn't be hard to quantify at all. Yet, that hasn't happened yet.

[drbanner]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

[october]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

Honestly Mike, I don't think there is a difference between ANY side by side grades, be it 7.0 and 7.5, 3.0 and 3.5, or 9.4 and 9.6. Grading is just too subjective to make close calls like that. Just look at the grading forum. There are guys with decades of experience who can't agree on books.