Silver Surfer 4 CGC 9.8 white

[drbanner]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

Honestly Mike, I don't think there is a difference between ANY side by side grades, be it 7.0 and 7.5, 3.0 and 3.5, or 9.4 and 9.6. Grading is just too subjective to make close calls like that. Just look at the grading forum. There are guys with decades of experience who can't agree on books.

 

Hmmmm, using this logic:

 

9.8 = 9.6, and

9.6 = 9.4, and

9.4 = 9.2, therefore,

9.8 = 9.2?

 

Obviously, somewhere this scenario fails, even if it is just the 1/32" spine stress you mention above. To make a general, blanket statement about the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, 9.8's are pretty much pristine books whereas one can typically see some kind of wear on 9.6's, even in the slab. I suspect if you had 5 9.6's and 5 9.8's broken out of the slab and were able to personally evaluate them "in the buff", it wouldn't be that difficult for you to sort them base on what you perceived the grade to be, and those results would jive with what CGC graded them at.

[whomerjay]

My point wasn't that people shouldn't pay for better quality, rather that slabbed 9.8 AREN'T better quality. If you want to delude yourself and continue to believe that 9.8s are somehow superior to 9.6s, other than the label they sport, that's fine. But don't try and tell me that 9.8s are "better" than 9.6s in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

And you know that 9.8's are not better than 9.6's how? I have personally submitted hundreds of raw books to CGC and I can assure you that 90% of the 9.8's out there are better than 90% of the 9.6's. Sure the price difference is crazy, and sure there are cases of some 9.6's better than some 9.8's, but to say that 9.8s are "not better" than 9.6s is not accurate, at all.

 

Sorry man, but I'm just real tired of hearing that "9.x's are no better than 9.(x - 0.2)'s" when it seems the real point people that say that are trying to make is that they don't feel the price difference is worth it. From what you've said about your collecting habits, you surely fall into that camp, right?

 

Yep, no doubt I fall into that camp.

 

Can you honestly tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, side by side, 90% of the time? If you can I am impressed. I have seen plenty of 9.6 and 9.8 slabs and the differences weren't apparent to me AT ALL most of the time...and I do know how to grade.

I would have to admit that with books 1980 to present, ALL (I repeat ALL) of the 9.6's and 9.8's I have gotten back from CGC are no different to my grading eye. I prescreened these books VERY carefully and did not submit anything that I considered to have a flaw, front and back cover, inside, bright lamp treatment. 80% of my submissions have come back 9.8's, the rest 9.6, and a couple 9.4. Now maybe they were damaged en route to the final grader, but the < 9.8's also look perfect in the slab.

 

Now with BA, I find a lot of inconsistency with 9.2-9.6, to the point where I've immediately sold off 9.6's I thought were 9.0 or below (BTW, the two CGC SS#4 I've owned were overgraded with ugly color breaking creases yet graded at 8.0 or 8.5) I've had several ASM's between 150-200 that were 9.6's and looked like 9.0's with coloring breaking creases (yes, plural). The few 9.8's I've seen were arguably more consistent and true 9.8's. So with BA and before, I would agree that most of the 9.8's are truly better than most 9.6's. Not worth 3X more, but generally were truly better grade.

 

Who TF knows how CGC decides SA above 9.4 and GA above 9.0. Incredibly inconsistent IMO.

 

So I think you must factor in era when arguing whether a genuine difference between CGC 9.6 and 9.8 exists.

[october]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

Honestly Mike, I don't think there is a difference between ANY side by side grades, be it 7.0 and 7.5, 3.0 and 3.5, or 9.4 and 9.6. Grading is just too subjective to make close calls like that. Just look at the grading forum. There are guys with decades of experience who can't agree on books.

 

Hmmmm, using this logic:

 

9.8 = 9.6, and

9.6 = 9.4, and

9.4 = 9.2, therefore,

9.8 = 9.2?

 

Obviously, somewhere this scenario fails, even if it is just the 1/32" spine stress you mention above. To make a general, blanket statement about the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, 9.8's are pretty much pristine books whereas one can typically see some kind of wear on 9.6's, even in the slab. I suspect if you had 5 9.6's and 5 9.8's broken out of the slab and were able to personally evaluate them "in the buff", it wouldn't be that difficult for you to sort them base on what you perceived the grade to be, and those results would jive with what CGC graded them at.

 

We are starting to talk about 2 different things.

 

1. In a comparison between a 9.6 and a 9.8, could the difference be seen?

 

2. In grading a single book, could the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 be conclusively determined?

 

My answers are...

 

1. Sometimes, but not enough of the time to justify the multiples.

 

2. No.

[drbanner]

1. In a comparison between a 9.6 and a 9.8, could the difference be seen?

 

My answers are...

 

1. Sometimes, but not enough of the time to justify the multiples.

 

Exactly...there's a difference, but you don't feel the price is justified (which in reading this thread seemed to be the underlying theme).

[whomerjay]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

Honestly Mike, I don't think there is a difference between ANY side by side grades, be it 7.0 and 7.5, 3.0 and 3.5, or 9.4 and 9.6. Grading is just too subjective to make close calls like that. Just look at the grading forum. There are guys with decades of experience who can't agree on books.

 

I don't think grading should be that subjective. I've maintained that those dealers universally recognized as good graders are simply those who understand the majority opinion on what grade is what. This comes from interacting with numerous people and SELLING lots of books to know what flaws determine a book will move at what % of guide. The problem arises because there is no well articulated formula ANYWHERE that spells out how to weight different flaws to arrive at a grade. Overstreet guidelines- not detailed and mathematical enough. CGC - unknown, and IMO whatever it is either not sufficiently quantitative or the graders are not all of the same mindset. Chuck's musings about grading in CBG- unintelligible. Grading should be objective and everyone employs what they feel are objective criteria, in some form of an algorithm, when grading a book, there is just a lack of consensus on how to weight criteria and a lack of rigidity to the process. Perhaps we need to abandon the one "grade" and start listing individual grades for numerous characterisitics of the book, a la what one of the sports cards grading companies tried to do a few years back.

[october]

1. In a comparison between a 9.6 and a 9.8, could the difference be seen?

 

My answers are...

 

1. Sometimes, but not enough of the time to justify the multiples.

 

Exactly...there's a difference, but you don't feel the price is justified (which in reading this thread seemed to be the underlying theme).

 

There is a difference SOMETIMES, not always. If there is only a difference 50% of the time (I just picked a number) is that enough to support the current distinction between 9.6s and 9.8s? I don't think so. Obviously some of the time a side by side comparison will have a clear winner. I would be a fool to argue against that. However, right now enough books with those designations are similar enough to render the differences meaningless. That was my point. Not that every slabbed 9.6 and 9.8 is interchangable.

[drbanner]

Perhaps we need to abandon the one "grade" and start listing individual grades for numerous characterisitics of the book, a la what one of the sports cards grading companies tried to do a few years back.

 

Yep, during the "Golden Age" of the forums I proposed a 3-tier system that included:

 

1) physical condition (tears, creases);

2) eye appeal (centering, printing registration, gloss, color); and

3) page quality.

 

I believe the card companies still use a 55/45 type of grade to reflect centering. In lieu of this, I motioned that it would be a great idea if CGC would employ the "star" system used by NGC to denote coins of particularily high eye appeal, but that also went nowhere.

 

I came to the conclusion that while a good idea, practicality gets in the way...just like it does with the otherwise great "scan library" idea to detect trim/press jobs.

[shrunkenhead]

1. In a comparison between a 9.6 and a 9.8, could the difference be seen?

 

My answers are...

 

1. Sometimes, but not enough of the time to justify the multiples.

 

Exactly...there's a difference, but you don't feel the price is justified (which in reading this thread seemed to be the underlying theme).

 

There is a difference SOMETIMES, not always. If there is only a difference 50% of the time (I just picked a number) is that enough to support the current distinction between 9.6s and 9.8s? I don't think so. Obviously some of the time a side by side comparison will have a clear winner. I would be a fool to argue against that. However, right now enough books with those designations are similar enough to render the differences meaningless. That was my point. Not that every slabbed 9.6 and 9.8 is interchangable.

 

And this is my feeling as well, which I've come to over time, and is essentially why I'm selling off the 9.8s----some at a profit, one or two at a loss, and mostly breaking even.

 

Sorry to be so brief and help out October more, but my wife says get offline. More tomorrow!

[Forbush-Man]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

 

Real question to me is: Is there a difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 or higher?

 

A true 9.6 would have brighter, deeper color than a 9.4 but the same structure.

 

A 9.8

[skybolt]

I don't know.....to me, the 9.6 copy looks better than the 9.8.

 

 

[adamstrange]

Do you think there's a difference between a 9.4 and a 9.6?

 

 

Real question to me is: Is there a difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8 or higher?

 

A true 9.6 would have brighter, deeper color than a 9.4 but the same structure.

 

A 9.8

 

9.4 can still have minor defects while a 9.6 will generally have fewer to practically none. Some of the defects might be very slight surface bends or dimples that are hard to see when the book is slabbed. It's a legitimate reason why a 9.6 might look better than a 9.8 or a 9.4 better than a 9.6. To be certain about the comparison of the books you'd have to take them out of the slab.

 

You'll also tend to see very sharp corners in the 9.6 and up along with, generally, nice page quality. Usually you don't get above 9.6 without off-white or better pages. I tend to look at the corners on these super high-grade books -- this will be especially impressive on the 9.8s (think Gaines copy for an example of what they should look like).

 

I've not seen them pay much attention to brighter colors. For example, the 9.9 spidey 19 has an off-white cover due to a heavy transfer stain and the 9.6 More Fun 53 Rockford is dull in comparison to the MH.

[Aman619]

almost missed this discussion. Put me down in the "no use for 9.8s" crowd. Its an illusion, and my money sez it'll be one of the biggest things we look back on and say "what were we thinking?"

[adamstrange]

From October, whose fire has apparently gone out.

 

Can you honestly tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, side by side, 90% of the time? If you can I am impressed. I have seen plenty of 9.6 and 9.8 slabs and the differences weren't apparent to me AT ALL most of the time...and I do know how to grade. In fact, it seems to me that people on this board, who submit thousands of books, aren't particularly accurate in predicting CGC grades either. If grading is that subjective, who is to say that a 1/32" stress mark is ok in 9.8, but a 1/16" is not? If the difference between those two grades is apparent 90% of the time, defects and their effect on grade shouldn't be hard to quantify at all. Yet, that hasn't happened yet.

 

Looks like I missed the point on the thread. I would suggest that there is a real difference between 9.6 and 9.8, but that it's easier to see in the pre1960 books as the exceptional copies really stand out. For the life of me, I cannot imagine being a grader of post 1970 books. I don't believe you can look at a comics in a slab and verify the grade for the reasons in the post above. As to CGC grades of 9.6 or higher and their market value/desirability, I'll leave that for others to pontificate on.

[tth2]

My point wasn't that people shouldn't pay for better quality, rather that slabbed 9.8 AREN'T better quality. If you want to delude yourself and continue to believe that 9.8s are somehow superior to 9.6s, other than the label they sport, that's fine. But don't try and tell me that 9.8s are "better" than 9.6s in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

 

And you know that 9.8's are not better than 9.6's how? I have personally submitted hundreds of raw books to CGC and I can assure you that 90% of the 9.8's out there are better than 90% of the 9.6's. Sure the price difference is crazy, and sure there are cases of some 9.6's better than some 9.8's, but to say that 9.8s are "not better" than 9.6s is not accurate, at all.

 

Sorry man, but I'm just real tired of hearing that "9.x's are no better than 9.(x - 0.2)'s" when it seems the real point people that say that are trying to make is that they don't feel the price difference is worth it. From what you've said about your collecting habits, you surely fall into that camp, right?

 

Yep, no doubt I fall into that camp.

 

Can you honestly tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8, side by side, 90% of the time? If you can I am impressed. I have seen plenty of 9.6 and 9.8 slabs and the differences weren't apparent to me AT ALL most of the time...and I do know how to grade. In fact, it seems to me that people on this board, who submit thousands of books, aren't particularly accurate in predicting CGC grades either. If grading is that subjective, who is to say that a 1/32" stress mark is ok in 9.8, but a 1/16" is not? If the difference between those two grades is apparent 90% of the time, defects and their effect on grade shouldn't be hard to quantify at all. Yet, that hasn't happened yet.

I couldn't hold my tongue any further on this. Andy, I think a decent number of collectors (and I'll include myself) can tell the difference between a 9.6 and 9.8 book in its raw form (or perhaps I should say they can tell the difference between a NM+ book and a NM/M book; whether CGC agrees with them all the time is a slightly different issue, and perhaps that is your real issue here).

 

Note my emphasis on the word "raw". If you're asking whether I can tell the difference looking at 2 slabbed books of that grade, I will say flat out no, because the slab hides too much. Also, I would not claim to be able to tell the difference between two raw books of that grade in mylars.

 

I bet if you put 10 raw copies of a book, ranging from VF/NM to NM/M, and got, say, Steve Borock, Doug Schmell and Banner to do a blind grading test, I bet their correlation would be upwards of 80%, and in fact most of the variation would take place at the lower end of the scale (between a VF/NM and a NM-) rather than the high end.

[october]

Now THAT'S something I would like to see.

 

I am sure many collectors think they can tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8. Ok. What IS the difference between the two? Can anyone explain it to me in definite terms? What is allowed and what isn't? Please cite measurements and other specifics. If three accomplished graders can agree 80-90% of the time, surely some iron-clad rules can be hammered out of that. Unfortunately, people keep side-stepping that issue. How can the differences between a 9.6 and a 9.8 be so apparent to some people without them being able to quantify those differences? I am looking for something a lot more concrete than OSGG loosey-goosey wording here.

[adamstrange]

Now THAT'S something I would like to see.

 

I am sure many collectors think they can tell the difference between a 9.6 and a 9.8. Ok. What IS the difference between the two? Can anyone explain it to me in definite terms? What is allowed and what isn't? Please cite measurements and other specifics. If three accomplished graders can agree 80-90% of the time, surely some iron-clad rules can be hammered out of that. Unfortunately, people keep side-stepping that issue. How can the differences between a 9.6 and a 9.8 be so apparent to some people without them being able to quantify those differences? I am looking for something a lot more concrete than OSGG loosey-goosey wording here.

 

How many hairs at what length make a beard?

 

If we can't quantify it, does that mean the word has no definition?

 

The difficulty with the quantification is that there are so many variables that I've not seen any realistic formula proposed by anyone, at any time for these grades.

 

I would suggest that a difference does exist but that it is best illustrated by example or description rather than by an algorithm.

 

My notes in the prior post about the 9.6 + grades were with regard to what I've seen in CGC and imply nothing about my personal views on the matter.

[shrunkenhead]

Ok, couldn't sleep (as usual!), so I'm back.

 

I understand Adam's point about the problems of quantification, but still, even in admitting those problems you're admitting that grading comics is more art than science, and more zen-like in nature than factually numerical or ontological (woo hoo fifty dollar word). How many hairs in a beard? That's a perfect analogy, and goes to show that the miniscule differences in the highest grades are subjective quantities.

 

 

Tth2 has repeatedly pointed out that the top guys can invariably---or at least with greater accuracy that us mere mortals--spot the raw 9.8. I agree with October, I'd like to see this happen. How about we have a "grade-off" contest at a con or something? Here's how I'd run it:

 

1) Take three non-GA books of the same issue (i.e. three SS #4s), all respectively CGC graded at 9.9, 9.8., and 9.6. Crack them all out.

 

2) Line up Doug, Steve B., Brulato, or some such similar line-up (Obviously if Steve B is playing our game, you'd want to have books lined up that he's never seen before, if we could swing that). Have them grade the books, though we make sure each one is grading without the other two guys around, so that they aren't influenced by another's decisions.

 

3) Have our graders turn their backs while we play 3-card monty with the books and switch 'em around. Have them grade the books again.

 

4) One more back-turn, and more grade-off. Three times a charm, now we compare notes. Who picked the same books each time? Who picked the books the same as CGC? How different was one dude's picks from another's?

 

5) Have CGC reslab the books on the premises, according to the new grade selections. See how different, or the same, we are. Auction off the books to charity on the spot and we all go home happy.

 

I think the results would be revealing indeed.

[Scrooge]

Ok, I wasn't going to reply until you did SHead. Maybe I am repeating what others have said but what is happening as Adam best described and Tim tried to is that Andy is trying to apply a simple solution to a complex problem but this will not work out.

 

In our situation, grading on the high end which is a complex problem, heuristics (or rule-of-thumbs) solutions will work better. In this sense, it is "experience" that will win out and, yes, CGC will "objectify" the subjective grade via Steve B's ability.

 

This, again, is why it is important that CGC achieve market recognition as a trustworthy party. One would be right in saying that the hobby has given into a CGC's grading "solution."

 

SHead's experiment would show that, indeed, people with a lot of experience in the hobby will tend to agree on which copy is best and reinforce the adequacy of the current system. I am glad that both Adam and Tim chimed in to state that long-time dealer / collector have developed that ability to discern best copies among better copies. It is to no end amazing to me how certain members of the board (Timely, RHG, Adam, Moondog, ...) can come on the board and state: "Oh yeah, this is a gorgeous book but the San Francisco is better looking with crisper color and blinding gloss." These guys have perfect copy recall coming from years of looking at books. This is what Steve B., Timely and other graders bring to the table under CGC's business model and overall are doing a great job at putting into practice in order to ascertain grades.

 

Andy, you have proven yourself to be a great grader in the many Contests ran but your expertise is currently at its best for the Simple Problem - Simple Solution grades, i.e. below 9.6 / 9.4 in which situations there are clear rules governing grade assignments. It would be erroneous to try a similar strategy at the higher level: you cannot apply simple solutions to complex problems.

 

P.S.: For those who care, behavioral finance is currently the study of individuals making financial decisions by applying complex solutions to simple problems. I think there is much more to explore by looking at people making incorrect financial decisions by applying simple solutions to complex problems.

[Aman619]

first off , CGC would never take part in any experiment that could and probably would demonstrate ANY inconsistency in their grading.

 

Th eother aspect of the 9.6 vs 9.8 issue is even if I were convinced graders could repeatedly and consistently pick out the "9.8" from a table of 9.6s, Its STILL wouldnt make me a buyer of 9.8s because the price differences bear no relation IMO to the difference in condition between them. They are just too close and all too nearly perfect for me to ever want to pay for the "9.8"

[shrunkenhead]

 

Th eother aspect of the 9.6 vs 9.8 issue is even if I were convinced graders could repeatedly and consistently pick out the "9.8" from a table of 9.6s, Its STILL wouldnt make me a buyer of 9.8s because the price differences bear no relation IMO to the difference in condition between them. They are just too close and all too nearly perfect for me to ever want to pay for the "9.8"

 

And this is my problem as well, though I'm probably beating a dead horse by now. It's a two-step nagging sensation for me:

 

1) There's no difference, or at least no difference that my inferior eyes can spot looking at slabs with a magnifying glass (which yes, embarassingly enough, I have done).

 

2) There is a difference, but who cares? It's so neglible that it is a "hobby-killer" for me. At this stage in the game, the only reason that I'd buy another 9.8 would be if said book was not available to me in any other shape (like it was a Gerber 9 or something). Not that I'd likely have the deep pockets for such an item, but you get the idea.

 

And if it's a hobby killer for me, somebody who sought them out at one time, how many others will eventually change their tune? That's too scary to think about; that's why I got out. My hobby shouldn't have those kinds of financial stressors attached to it. That's what I have utility bills, rent, two car payments, and my unborn children's college fund for.

 

Ok, nite nite for real.