The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Malacoda]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:27 PM, Redshade said:

Pardon my repetition but if I may reiterate an oft told experience of mine.

In the mid 60s we had a standing order with our newsagent. Our daily newspapers, weekly magazines and UK comics arrived without having to be reordered each time.

I can distinctly remember asking our local newsagent (Mr Hartley of Hartley and Sons Newsagents and Tobacconists) why the same method could not be used to have my favourite US comics delivered.

I remember being told that I couldn't order specific titles because he couldn't do so from the wholesaler and that he received an unspecified mixed box each delivery of US comics.

Now, as an adult I can imagine that a newsagents order form would be a pre-printed sheet(s) which he would fill in. X dozen Daily Blurb, Y dozen Women's Monthly etc.

If Mr Hartley wanted to purchase US comics he would, I surmise, tick the box for Z dozen US comics each delivery cycle. (I realise that the newsagent would probably have a standing order for most titles).

So if the order last week/month contained “6 stamped” comics then the wholesaler would the next time pull a box of “7 stamped” comics from the warehouse.

I understand that the comics received by the wholesaler would not, due to the vagaries of shipping schedules from the US to the UK, be totally different but at least it was an attempt by them to ensure that their customers' US box of comics was different each month and not a duplication of previous deliveries.

Thanks Redshade. This certainly gels with accounts from a number of other collectors and I don't think I've ever heard anyone tell a story to the contrary.  Additionally, something you see all the time is UK Marvels with a surname or a door number written on the front or back cover - sometimes entire collections of them - but you never see US imported comics with that (unless you count 'this belongs to Benny, so dollop off, Michael'  pretty clearly written by the owner, not the newsagent.  

[Redshade]

On 6/10/2022 at 6:15 PM, Malacoda said:

Thanks Redshade. This certainly gels with accounts from a number of other collectors and I don't think I've ever heard anyone tell a story to the contrary.  Additionally, something you see all the time is UK Marvels with a surname or a door number written on the front or back cover - sometimes entire collections of them - but you never see US imported comics with that (unless you count 'this belongs to Benny, so dollop off, Michael'  pretty clearly written by the owner, not the newsagent.  

I can think of no other reason for the identifying stamp numbers other than to differentiate shipments to T&P to thereby try to avoid duplications to their retail customers.
As well as being outside the normal ordering process I assumed that this was why the US comics were non returnable as opposed to the UK stuff being "sale or return".

Edited June 10, 2022 by Redshade

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/10/2022 at 7:01 PM, Redshade said:

the US comics were non returnable as opposed to the UK stuff being "sale or return".

The imported comics were distributed in the UK by T & P, via a number of wholesalers.

The were certainly returnable. My uncle was a newsagent in the 1960s and he told me he returned the unsold ones.

[Redshade]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:53 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

The imported comics were distributed in the UK by T & P, via a number of wholesalers.

The were certainly returnable. My uncle was a newsagent in the 1960s and he told me he returned the unsold ones.

 

With respect Albert I have to differ with you on this. I am in no way casting  aspersions upon the the integrity or honesty of your uncle and your good self. So please bear with me whilst I make a total **** of myself.

All purchases by a retailer to a wholesaler had to be documented by prior agreement and mentioned in the order forms by title, issue number, dates etc.

The SOR system was highly legislated and rigorously policed with various contractual obligations put on the seller and purchaser. Copies of all the order forms had to be kept for accounting and tax purposes.

There is no way that an ad hoc box of misc comics could comply with the regulations in force at the time. They would have been firm sales (i.e. non returnable).

I do so wish that you could provide us with some of your uncle's order forms and contracts etc. I don't at all mind being proven wrong but I have my own reasons for my assertions.

Some clauses that SOR contracts had to adhere to :

These Sale or Return Terms and Conditions of Sale contain the following sections:

1. Definitions and Interpretation
2. Basis of Sale
3. Orders and Specifications
4. Price
5. Payment
6. Delivery
7. Non-Delivery
8. Inspection / Shortage
9. Risk and Retention of Title
10. Assignment
11. Defective Goods
12. Sale or Return
13. Risk and Retention of Title in Returned Goods
14. Buyer’s Default
15. Limitation of Liability
16. Confidentiality, Publications and Endorsements
17. Notices
18. Force Majeure
19. No Waiver
20. Severance
21. Third Party Rights
22. [Dispute Resolution (Arbitration)]
23. Law and Jurisdiction

So there is my argument Albert. By all means give me a good thrashing if I am wrong.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Redshade

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/10/2022 at 11:26 PM, Redshade said:

So there is my argument Albert

So it T & P did not accept returns, how did the 9d and 10d stamped comics get back into the same spinner racks, months or even years later, with 6d triangular reduced price stamps?

 

[Redshade]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:16 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

So it T & P did not accept returns, how did the 9d and 10d stamped comics get back into the same spinner racks, months or even years later, with 6d triangular reduced price stamps?

 

Perhaps they dug out old boxes from their warehouse and restamped them?

 

[Malacoda]

On 6/9/2022 at 7:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Just a flying visit Rich, and a quick dumping of thoughts.

My take is that the numbered stamp is applicable to all cents priced US imported publications, not just comics. Comics, magazines, whatever. If it was imported from the US in cents, and therefore needed a UK price, in came the price stamp, with a number. It's not comic specific. We can see the stamps on a whole variety of publications and magazines. The pricing need is obvious, but we've proven the additional stamp number on it meant something, as T&P retained it when the updated / branded their stamps.

This thread has been very DC-centric. There are other comic publishers to consider. The best number tracking table would include the numbering for them all, not just DC. But if we all agree that certain DC books were the first to arrive in the UK, then why are they stamped 8s and 9s and not 1? If the numbered stamp system was specific to comics, then why isn't stamp #1 the first use for all those 'first to arrive in the UK' DC books?

The 1-9, to me, has a purpose. That purpose translates to anything imported on an unstructured cents priced basis. That's what the evidence is telling me. 

Over the weekend I'll try to find all the magazines I saved with T&P stamps on and some of the Charlton examples that appear to predate DC. They're on a flash drive now. There's no point looking at home grown T&P publications for the 50s as they are already in UK prices and need no stamp. No stamp - no number.

For comics, US imported UKPVs (Marvel, Charlton, Archie, Dell) do not have stamps and therefore numbers. So numbers aren't needed for distribution there, and they managed it without them. So the numbers relate to imported cents publications only. Logically, it has something to do with accounting. T&P ordered UKPVs to a set price, volume and frequency. They were printed and paid to order. And no stamp numbers were needed. T&P ordered cents books on an unstructured "we'll take your returns cheap" basis. And stamp numbers were needed.

That's the key, I think. The difference in how they were solicited and, therefore, accounted for. Two sets of comics coming in. Structured UKPVs and unstructured cents returns. For the latter group, T&P needed to price them. That's obvious. But they clearly also needed to number arrivals 1-9. The reason for that, remains, less obvious.

More over the weekend as we're on the road tomorrow 

Steve, somewhere in this lot, you say that the numbering system finished around the time of decimalisation, but I think it finished waaaaaay sooner.  I think the numbers disappeared in June/July 1970 and were replaced by just T&P, but I think the system had ceased to be used way before that.  I tracked it back from this point to the start of the third hiatus and the numbering becomes clearly meaningless (or the sequential part of it leaves the equation) from Nov/Dec 1969, because titles just re-use the same number every month.  And before this, as far as I can see, it’s total bloody chaos i.e. both bunching and multi-batching over periods of 6 months and more, which clearly didn’t happen (nobody remembers new copies of the same issue of their comics turning up month after month after month nor 6 months worth of issues all turning up together), so clearly it had nothing to do with the frequency of distribution. 
More tomorrow. 

Including some lovely, lovely tables that you’ll want some time alone with.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:19 AM, Malacoda said:

Steve, somewhere in this lot, you say that the numbering system finished around the time of decimalisation, but I think it finished waaaaaay sooner.  I think the numbers disappeared in June/July 1970 and were replaced by just T&P, but I think the system had ceased to be used way before that.

Yes, I meant physically on the stamps - the numbering, utilised or not, and from whatever actual date, disappears from the first single priced post decimal 5p stamp:

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/9/2022 at 9:53 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

But they could have counted them, and probably already had, without stamping them.

Of course, but they wouldn't be identifiable from that point as they moved on through the operation. If the books were distributed around the other T&P locations, having the numbered stamp allows tracking. Otherwise, every time a new shipment arrived, there would be the possibility of shipment volumes getting mixed up.

Additionally, if you are right, and there were returns of stamped copies, then the stamp number indicates from what shipment. I can imagine how that might be helpful from an internal accounting perspective, as it would allow them to track return volumes over a period which would show how well the books were selling, progressively.

Interesting though it all is, we're all guessing here, and sharing differing recollections (those of us that are old enough). Once you get past the basic facts, provided by the comics, everything else is going to be guesswork until someone unearths actual T&P records, or someone who worked there, with a spectacular memory for an octogenarian, comes forward.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 12:16 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

So it T & P did not accept returns, how did the 9d and 10d stamped comics get back into the same spinner racks, months or even years later, with 6d triangular reduced price stamps?

 

Possibly the same way that T&P 'Double Double' compendiums were put together - "illegally" 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/11/2022 at 10:53 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Possibly the same way that T&P 'Double Double' compendiums were put together - "illegally" 

Surely they were unsold returns recycled by T & P.

They appeared alongside the regular full price items, obviously part of the same distribution process.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:35 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Surely they were unsold returns recycled by T & P.

Maybe, Albert. And don't call me Shirley.  

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/11/2022 at 4:44 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Maybe, Albert. And don't call me Shirley.  

And even more surely, T & P would not have offloaded them onto a rival who would undercut them.

[themagicrobot]

Albert says

Quote

The imported comics were distributed in the UK by T & P, via a number of wholesalers.

Perhaps I've been labouring under a misunderstanding. I always assumed that Thorpe and Porter were a wholesaler in their own right operating outside of the numerous more local wholesalers that delivered the daily papers, UK comics and UK magazines that were the mainstay of most newsagents. T&P supplied spinner racks or wall racks for their stuff and didn't expect to see any Beanos etc wedged into the slots designed to display their soft porn and comics. In my experience in the 1960s there were some newsagents local to me that NEVER sold any american comics and you would assume that was because their particular wholesaler in the nearest city didn't offer them because if the option had appeared on the order forms  surely they would have sampled some occasionally? If T&P sent their wares to other wholesalers to distribute wouldn't that reduce their margins on comics that had been transported all the way across the Atlantic and only sold for 9d anyway. And that would upset the theory of fresh batches of comics in the 1960s only appearing monthly. If boxes/bundles of DC comics were on the local wholesalers order forms then newsagents, depending on turnover, could buy them as often as they liked.

In the same way I assumed L. Miller were operating as a wholesaler similarly to T&P but operating mostly in the southern half of the country, and as they were "sole distributors" hence my never seeing any Harvey comics in the shops I frequented in the 1960s. And isn't it odd that in 1960 when T&P, World Distributors and Miller could begin winding down their reprints now having access to the real thing, two of them chose a 9d price point whilst Miller initially settled for 6d. Out of that 6d the newsagent needed a cut and Len Miller needed profit too.  Surely there couldn't have been another wholesaler link in the chain wanting their cut too between Harvey in the States and Len Miller & Co (Hackney) Ltd and the newsagent. What was Len paying for those 10 cent Harvey comics anyway? Tuppence or even less than that ??

All the above refers to the 1960s spinner rack era and means of distribtion would change in later decades.

Edited June 11, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:10 PM, themagicrobot said:

 

Love the Pellbound ad 

[Yorick]

On 6/11/2022 at 11:28 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Love the Pellbound ad 

Took me a minute to figure out what Pellbound meant. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:36 PM, Yorick said:

Took me a minute to figure out what Pellbound meant. 

The sister publication of Ombie and Oodoo 

[themagicrobot]

Quote

Love the Pellbound ad 

It is of course a world-famous Spellbound comic from 1960 with variable binding and "Stories to hold you" slipping to the bottom when it should be above the title.

PS I had one of those water pistols and they were vicious.

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by themagicrobot

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/11/2022 at 7:43 PM, themagicrobot said:

PS I had one of those water pistols and they were vicious.

You're saying they weren't meant to be filled with piddle?  

[Get Marwood & I]

Nice '59 Arnold one here. He went 9d, before Pops gave him the boot: