The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:16 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

If only my arthritis and lumbago could give me some respite.

I will keep an eye out for anything lesser spotted, though.

I have started going through a few bits looking at the back covers in case there is any info there.

And there is a pile of fanzines to check through, not looked at them for donkeys years.

The fanzines can be little gold (star) mines. I find the online ones quite tiring to read, zooming and scrolling all the time. I'd love to have some original copies in hand to go through. That would be fun.

[Redshade]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:59 PM, themagicrobot said:

No doubt I missed this last year and it has already been commented on.   https://blog.gocollect.com/the-legend-of-ballast-comics/ Who is Luke Smith? Does he visit these forums?

I'm sure a very small amount of comics did arrive here unofficially by boat. I think more paper ballast would consist of pulps and magazines, even paperbacks than comics. I think "ballast" of paper was mostly a pre/post war thing. I think ships would surely aim to return with saleable goods rather than be empty apart from "ballast". I can't see them throwing any stuff over the side if it would have a saleable value no matter how small.

Hi Robot. I note your slight doubts regarding the matter of ballast. I've looked at Luke Smith's blog and he once again propagates the legend without offering any proof. I have looked into this several times over the years and have found nothing whatsoever to substantiate the myth (I think that I have even joined in discussions on these pages about such). In ancient times stones were used and at least since the age of steam mechanical pumps have been in use to on/off load water to be used as the stabilising medium in ships. Until such times as irrefutable proof is presented I shall remain a sceptic, (and, it would seem, a pompous windbag).

 

[Malacoda]

On 5/5/2023 at 8:07 PM, Garystar said:

No idea what the print run of Alan’s was although I suspect a lot less than MWOM (which I understood to be about 350,000)

I'm sure it gets down to those numbers.  I believe I read in Rob Kirby's article in Alter Ego that MWOM #1 shifted 500k copies, but that was with TV advertising, it was new and exciting and had a free transfer, so I imagine numbers calmed down quite a bit.  When Dez Skinn launched the Hulk comic that replaced it 7 years later, the print run was down to 250k, so I could well believe 350k was the magic number for a sizeable chunk of the run.

[Yorick]

On 5/6/2023 at 2:01 PM, Redshade said:

In ancient times stones were used and at least since the age of steam mechanical pumps have been in use to on/off load water to be used as the stabilising medium in ships.

Manure was tried at one point.  Unfortunately, after it got wet it began to off-gas and ships exploded.  They then needed to Ship High In Transport so there wouldn't be further problems.

[Malacoda]

On 5/6/2023 at 10:01 PM, Redshade said:

On 5/5/2023 at 7:59 PM, themagicrobot said:

No doubt I missed this last year and it has already been commented on.   https://blog.gocollect.com/the-legend-of-ballast-comics/ Who is Luke Smith? Does he visit these forums?

I'm sure a very small amount of comics did arrive here unofficially by boat. I think more paper ballast would consist of pulps and magazines, even paperbacks than comics. I think "ballast" of paper was mostly a pre/post war thing. I think ships would surely aim to return with saleable goods rather than be empty apart from "ballast". I can't see them throwing any stuff over the side if it would have a saleable value no matter how small.

Hi Robot. I note your slight doubts regarding the matter of ballast. I've looked at Luke Smith's blog and he once again propagates the legend without offering any proof. I have looked into this several times over the years and have found nothing whatsoever to substantiate the myth (I think that I have even joined in discussions on these pages about such). In ancient times stones were used and at least since the age of steam mechanical pumps have been in use to on/off load water to be used as the stabilising medium in ships. Until such times as irrefutable proof is presented I shall remain a sceptic, (and, it would seem, a pompous windbag).

I think with regard to ballast, personally I'd start with Steve's Golden Rules (it ‘doesn’t exist until it exists’ and you can ‘never say never’). In between, I think it's a balance of probabilities. 

I don't think we're ever going to find the letter that says 'Dear Mr. Ship's Captain, please find enclosed 10 tons of comics to use as ballast on your ship. You must, of course, dispose of these on arrival as it's illegal to sell them in the UK. Definitely don't flog them to the traders gathered at the docks, nudge nudge, wink wink'. 

During WW2, the lend lease ships returned across the Atlantic carrying rubble from bombed out UK buildings for use in American construction. After the war, as the Robot says, I'd imagine they tried everything to sail profitable cargo both ways. 

After the war, we know that publication returns were used for all kinds of things; anything that would generate more profit than pulping.  The original magazines with which Fred Thorpe started T&P were famously the colour supplements of newspapers, but the returned newspapers he bought by the ton were actually being shipped to India to use as wrapping paper. That's a long way to send a copy of Good Housekeeping.   I have no problem believing comics, along with magazines, newspapers etc, were used as ballast across the Atlantic.   

More likely, in the days of breakbulk cargo, the paper wasn't actually ballast as such but was used as dunnage or makeweights to keep the ship on an even keel (literally), keep everything packed tight, create enough weight to keep the ship low enough in the water and to balance out the heavier cargo and lighter cargo.  

I don't think we will ever find absolute proof, other than anecdotal evidence, that comics were used as ballast because putting them ashore to be sold was illegal due to pre 59 customs laws, but also dumping them overboard within 25 nautical miles of shore was illegal. 

That being the case, with UK readers clamouring for US pulps, magazines and comics and enterprising individuals waiting at the docks with open arms, it seems very unlikely to me that none of this material ever found its way ashore.  As soon as the import ban lifted in 59, Fred immediately began to import returned comics at super cheap (below wholesale) prices.  Maybe he knew this was the golden opportunity precisely because it was already going on with the ballast comics.  He just went legit with it. 

But I'm just speculating. 

[LowGradeBronze]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:17 PM, Malacoda said:

But I'm just speculating. 

There needs to be a 2d emoji.

[Redshade]

I don't know if this stamp has been featured in these pages but this comic has a circled 10d stamp and an uncircled 10d stamp, both seem to be in the same font.

[Albert Tatlock]

A 1/3 stamp, upside down at the top of the TC, and one with a stickered stamp.

[Redshade]

On 5/7/2023 at 9:27 PM, Redshade said:

I don't know if this stamp has been featured in these pages but this comic has a circled 10d stamp and an uncircled 10d stamp, both seem to be in the same font.

On second thoughts both 10d stamps appear to be naked, with the top one superimposed upon a faint circled 1/-.

[Malacoda]

On 5/7/2023 at 10:53 PM, Redshade said:

On second thoughts both 10d stamps appear to be naked, with the top one superimposed upon a faint circled 1/-.

I think you're right.  These bad boys definitely exist for Xmen 25....

And, of course....

Note the date on this one.  Mike reckons these hit the stands on August 2nd, so this one went on a fortnight's summer holiday before coming back to work. 

[Malacoda]

On 5/7/2023 at 9:54 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

and one with a stickered stamp.

Wow, that's a Nov 63 cover date, presumably rocked up in Leicester some time in early 64, got stamped 9d and by the time it went round for another go, prices had gone up to 10d (Nov 64).   That one spent over a year looking for a good home.  I'm surprised it didn't sell though, I mean, it has the obligatory giant ape and he's fighting pterodactyls as well as warplanes.  What more did people want for ninepence?

[themagicrobot]

I almost posted this in  the Your (Relatively) Least Favourite Silver Age Super Hero ?!? thread. Never did like DD (or Spider-Man) that much.

PS I am only writing this to see how many posts are expected before you are no longer condescended to as being an "Apprentice".

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/7/2023 at 9:27 PM, Redshade said:

I don't know if this stamp has been featured in these pages but this comic has a circled 10d stamp and an uncircled 10d stamp, both seem to be in the same font.

That 10d stamp appears on quite a few Charlton's that I have, Stephen. I find these stamp types quite interesting - the ones where you gather enough to prove they weren't one offs, but not enough to prove anything systematic. I especially like it when they appear on already stamped books like your X-Men. I've satisfied myself that certain unbranded stamps are Miller's, and others T&P, but that took many years of piecing things together. I save examples when I see them, but I'm not sure we'll ever get to the bottom of who some of these other stamps, that crop up occasionally, belonged to.

Incidentally, I had a good look around at the London Fair yesterday for more on the Gold Star window list. There were one or two new ones but in the end I couldn't muster the energy to get my glasses out and take pictures given how crowded it was and how precious some dealers can be about that. Yesterday was the first time I've came away with nothing, by the way. Silver Age are becoming increasingly difficult to find at this fair. Very slim pickings now, as the circles decease slowly buy very surely. Shame really. Thank God for eBay.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/8/2023 at 1:24 AM, Malacoda said:

And, of course....

Note the date on this one.  Mike reckons these hit the stands on August 2nd, so this one went on a fortnight's summer holiday before coming back to work. 

I love stamp / arrival date combinations. Most collectors love their books clean. For me, the more distribution related guff on them the better! I post this one often, but never tire of it:

There are even stamps on the back cover, but I can't find the image.

Edit: Found it!

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/471133-the-distribution-of-us-published-comics-in-the-uk-1959~1982/?do=findComment&comment=11269428

Blimey, was that really three years ago... 

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Get Marwood & I
Low ceilings

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/8/2023 at 8:43 AM, themagicrobot said:

PS I am only writing this to see how many posts are expected before you are no longer condescended to as being an "Apprentice".

You remind me of myself a bit here, Robot 

When I first joined I hated the differentiation of board 'titles' which I thought were crass and divisive. They even gave special privileges to what at the time were called 'Seasoned Veterans', a title based purely on post count (and not quality of post count or longevity). I likely got on everyone's nerves about it, but I don't think they work and I think only the user themselves should be able to decide what wording sits on their profile. I recall saying something like "if Stan Lee joined, would he be a newbie to the hobby?". Something like that.

I hate the wording that I have - the nappies thing - I didn't choose it, as most visitors would assume, and I think it can come across as arrogant. And now they've removed the standard US 'diapers' equivalent, it doesn't even make sense. The IT department can't do anything about it though - they did try to get it removed for me but it was hard coded in by the bloke that introduced them all back in the day. Typical isn't it. We can put a man on the moon, but we can't remove a customised board title on a bog-standard software package. The owners of CGC could buy Invision (the software owners) out a million times over, but our CGC staff appear to have zero say and influence over anything we see and use from them.

Back to comics, I've got that DD #34 in the files by the way. It differs to the 'regular' Gold Star shilling stamp so could be someone else's. Or, like Miller and T&P, it could still be Gold Star's and they could just have used different stamp types.

[Malacoda]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:33 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

The IT department can't do anything about it though - they did try to get it removed for me but it was hard coded in by the bloke that introduced them all back in the day. Typical isn't it.

And do we even believe it? I bet if the wind changed and one of these epithets was suddenly perceived as sexist / racist / homophobic / anti-semitic / islamophobic / transphobic or similar, it would be gone in a heartbeat.  Surely referring to nappies is ageist and promotes discrimination against babies? Also, given that we're all probably one hard sneeze away from adult nappies, it might actually be close to the bone. 

[themagicrobot]

All I wanted to know was how many posts were required until you finished your Apprenticeship?!? And  now, we've gone to the other extreme, and as if by magic every single person here are suddenly just Members (ooer Missus). Perhaps they want people to complain that they enjoyed being Explorers/In Nappies and get things changed back??

Edited May 8, 2023 by themagicrobot

[Garystar]

On 5/7/2023 at 12:04 AM, Malacoda said:

I'm sure it gets down to those numbers.  I believe I read in Rob Kirby's article in Alter Ego that MWOM #1 shifted 500k copies, but that was with TV advertising, it was new and exciting and had a free transfer, so I imagine numbers calmed down quite a bit.  When Dez Skinn launched the Hulk comic that replaced it 7 years later, the print run was down to 250k, so I could well believe 350k was the magic number for a sizeable chunk of the run.

The figure in my mind of 350,000 may have come from Fantasy Domain #1 which prior to MWOM being published quoted a figure of 325,000. 

[themagicrobot]

325.000 for the very first issue sounds feasible, especially with the handful of TV ads at the time. The Beano had print runs in excess of half a million in the early 1960s. It got quite a crowded market later in the 1960s for UK weekly comics but perhaps 200,000 for some of the more popular weeklies wasn't unknown when you see what Look-In was doing even in 1983. Oddly, no mention of the Marvel stuff in this list.

[Malacoda]

On 5/8/2023 at 9:21 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

I love stamp / arrival date combinations. Most collectors love their books clean. For me, the more distribution related guff on them the better! I post this one often, but never tire of it:

It's a thing of rare beauty.  Comics like this are just screaming at us to unravel all the mysteries, aren't they? Looking at it, you'd imagine that the stamps on the back were put on as a last resort after the front had descended into a hot mess. Maybe not. The intriguing thing is that it has Miller prices at both 9d and 6d. If this came out in the States on Oct 1960, did the rounds, came back as a return, went to Fred, at this point it either failed to sell and got returned to Miller by mistake, or more likely sold for 9d by Fred, and then got exchanged at Millers, was resold by Miller for 9d (cheeky) and then exchanged back and sold again for sixpence by Miller (maybe more than once), then where does the stamp on the back fit in?  (Assuming that 1761 means July 1st 1961).  

It also might have been a remainder in the States not a return.  I think ACG probably had a rather unique deal with IND.  I had to look this up again as I can never keep it straight in my head - largely because I can't quite grok the incestuousness of it: 

• ACG was founded by Ben Sangor. Sangor's daughter Jacquelyn was married to Ned Pines who owned Standard Comics. Sangor thus created the Sangor Shop, a comics packaging company (amazingly, though based in NY, they used artists in California) for Ned Pines company, but then founded his own comic company, ACG, in 1943.  
• Sangor knew Harry Donenfeld purportedly because they played gin rummy together, although given the connections the two of them built up during the 1930’s, one wonders exactly where and with whom they were playing. Donenfeld capitalised and part owned ACG. IND distributed for them.  
• Donenfeld had two children, Irwin and Sonia.  Sonia Donenfeld, known as ‘Peaches’ (whether this was due to her fondness for soft fruit or the shapeliness of her posterior goes unrecorded) married a man named Fred Iger.  Iger was co-owner of ACG with Sangor (Donenfeld was a silent partner, though if one were interested in silence, Harry Donenfeld would seem an unlikely source). Iger also became co-owner of NPP (so DC and IND) from 1948 to 1961. 
• Donenfeld was the boss of DC and IND along with Jack Liebowitz. Liebowitz was the son of an old client (Julius Liebowitz knew Harry through their union activities in the ladies undergarment industry. No, really).  
• Harry's son, who became part owner, editor & VP was Irwin Donenfeld (insert ape waving chequered flag here).  Irwin was married to Arlene Levy from 1946 -1961.  He then married Alice Greenbaum who was a friend of Bob Kane's.  He divorced her and married Carole Schapp, who was Jack Liebowitz's niece.  Liebowitz's younger daughter later married a George Levy, but I don't know if he was related to Arlene. 
• Fred Iger, part owner of DC, IND and ACG was first married to Sonia Donenfeld (Irwin’s sister) and then to Arlene Levy (Irwin’s wife) ( "Irwin, I've got some bad news....and some worse news"). 
• Iger’s association with DC ended in 1961 when the company went public, which was also the same year he divorced Harry’s daughter and married his daughter-in-law.  ACG got out of the comics business in 1967 when Kinney bought out IND. 

Whoever did the seating chart for the DC annual picnic must have had their work cut out for them.