The Distribution of US Published Comics in the UK (1959~1982) 15 15

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/19/2022 at 8:31 PM, themagicrobot said:

@Get Marwood & I Just thinking out loud here. The Jim Shooter article where he talks about US returns not being returned but instead just the titles of the covers being torn off and returmed. When did that practice begin/end as everyone here has decided it was DC "returns" coming to the UK at least in the 1960s. Would it be reasible for T&P to have access to a big heap of comics all missing their cover titles for a really super cheap price. Ethel could have torn off the rest of the covers before they were rebound as Double Doubles?!?

It's a cool theory. Thing is, why instruct your sellers to remove covers from returning books that you plan to sell off to the UK anyway? And I've seen so many references to the illegality of what T&P were doing with the Double Doubles. I do like that idea though. Buy the coverless copies mega cheap from the US and make DDs with them - with or without their blessing!

On 6/19/2022 at 8:31 PM, themagicrobot said:

I tend towards the theory that most if not all "returns" never saw a Stateside spinner rack and just sat in various distributors warehouses for a few weeks before being gratefully offloaded onto us.

I don't know, is the honest answer. I'm open to the possibility that some of the returns weren't returned from the actual shops, as you say. And you and I have both questioned all that seemingly unnecessary overprinting. Maybe they do play into it to. But I do have examples of arrival dates on copies with stamps.  But even there I've seen it suggested that distribution hubs may have done that so who knows.

On 6/19/2022 at 8:31 PM, themagicrobot said:

The Superman family comics I began buying new in 1964 looked shiney and new to me, even though they had already been handled by Ethel at T&P and Stan at my friendly neighbourhood newsagents

Nothing in this process ever makes complete sense really, does it 

[Yorick]

If a new cover was being added to the old guts of a return copy, then you should be seeing additional staple holes at the centerfold. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/19/2022 at 8:31 PM, themagicrobot said:

I tend towards the theory that most if not all "returns" never saw a Stateside spinner rack and just sat in various distributors warehouses for a few weeks before being gratefully offloaded onto us.

I think this is exactly the case.  Whether, as we said before, there was a mix of returns from the retailers or just from the local distributors is a question, but either way, that mountain of spares was definitely piled up at the 500+ local distributors.  Logically, if you had a stack of dog eared, weather beaten returns from the retailers and 15 stacks of the same comics that had never left the local distributors warehouse, why would you send the knackered ones to the UK?

When you read the post office statements and it says, for example, that Marvel printed 500k Spideys  of which 300k were sold, it sort of leaves you (well, me, anyway)  with the impression that 500k were delivered to the 'Marvel depot', 300k went out and 200k were left remaindered. But, of course, there was no Marvel depot. The whole reason that WCP dominated the market was because they invented pool shipping in the 1950's, so instead of shipping this lot for Marvel and this other lot for Playboy and this other lot for the Saturday Evening Post, they shipped everything together by destination, so when the pantechnicon pulled out of Sparta for, let's say Detroit, it had every publication from every publisher for the Detroit local wholesaler loaded onto it.  This gave WCP the lowest distribution costs in the industry. But, as far as I can see, that mountain of undistributed comics can only have been piled up at the local distributors.  If I were DC, I'd have an arrangement specifically with the NY & NJ local distributors to ship their returns directly to Port Elizabeth, as they'd be closest to the port and probably have enough left over to fulfil the UK order (guessing). 

I assume X amount went to the New York HQ's for their marketing needs and Y amount went to wherever the postal subscriptions were handled, but the rest, I believe must have been at the local distributors .

[OtherEric]

On 6/19/2022 at 12:31 PM, themagicrobot said:

@OtherEric That is an extremely interesting theory that I never considered before. It wouldn't have been the first time that T&P had ripped covers off comics. A clue is to be found top left of the cover where it says "32 pages in full colour". Gold key (and DC and Marvel etc) had 36 pages. The T&P Bonanza doesn't have the same middle pages though. What was on the other sides of those middle pages? If they were ads too then Ethel could have ripped out the middle pages with her left hand whilst ink stamping comics with the other hand. But I think the Gold Key Bonanza had a house ad on the last page before the inside back cover. It looks like this comic wasn't printed in Poughskeepsi.

I'm guessing it wasn't either, particularly since some of them didn't have the indicia, unlike the Bonanza.  Still, was a worthwhile thought for a few seconds... sometimes the crazy speculation hits pay dirt.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/19/2022 at 8:43 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

But even there I've seen it suggested that distribution hubs may have done that so who knows.

If the dates had been put on at a distribution centre, then we would expect uniformity, but that is not what we observe. There is a wide variety, pen, pencil, crayon, rubber stamp, and different placements, front cover left, right or centre, back cover.

That suggests to me that they were applied by individual retailers.

I will, as soon as time permits, upload a few from a run of Adventure Comics which illustrate this.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/20/2022 at 11:11 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

If the dates had been put on at a distribution centre, then we would expect uniformity, but that is not what we observe. There is a wide variety, pen, pencil, crayon, rubber stamp, and different placements, front cover left, right or centre, back cover.

That suggests to me that they were applied by individual retailers.

I will, as soon as time permits, upload a few from a run of Adventure Comics which illustrate this.

Multiple regional distribution hubs?

I'm with you though, I think the examples I've seen are from shops.

[Albert Tatlock]

And when, I wonder, did this first cross the counter of the PBC?

Was it pre-T & P import?

Edited June 20, 2022 by Albert Tatlock
scan added.

[Malacoda]

On 6/19/2022 at 1:41 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Yes. Order a copy now and read it. 

Yes, order a copy and read it sounds like a tautology, but it's really not.  My current reading pile is now so high it probably violates my home insurance. 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:49 PM, Malacoda said:

Yes, order a copy and read it sounds like a tautology, but it's really not.  My current reading pile is now so high it probably violates my home insurance. 

Handy fire extinguisher on the window sill there Rich, should they catch light. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:50 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Handy fire extinguisher on the window sill there Rich, should they catch light. 

Hah! The grails are all in fire proof safes.  If there's a fire, me and the mem-sahib will both die, the house will burn to the ground and the gas main will probably explode.....but the comics will be safe.  

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:59 PM, Malacoda said:

Hah! The grails are all in fire proof safes.  If there's a fire, me and the mem-sahib will both die, the house will burn to the ground and the gas main will probably explode.....but the comics will be safe.  

If my house went up in a big explosion thousands of pages of Charlton comics would be scattered in the local area. Then, in 60 years time, someone would start up a blog and say that there was evidence that Charltons were indeed distributed in.....

[Malacoda]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:02 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

If my house went up in a big explosion thousands of pages of Charlton comics would be distributed in the local area. Then, in 60 years time, someone would start up a blog and say that there was evidence that Charltons were indeed distributed in.....

.....and have you noticed that, whereas the old ones were water-damaged, these ones are all fire damaged. But what does it mean??? What does it mean???? 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 6/22/2022 at 4:59 PM, Malacoda said:

If there's a fire, me and the mem-sahib will both die, the house will burn to the ground and the gas main will probably explode.....but the comics will be safe.  

Just leave this in a prominent position and the flames won't dare to show their face........

[Get Marwood & I]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:07 PM, Malacoda said:

.....and have you noticed that, whereas the old ones were water-damaged, these ones are all fire damaged. But what does it mean??? What does it mean???? 

That some Charlton collecting sucker's house blew up. 

Talking of which, I've been trying to start the Charlton journal up and I just can't get going on it.

Two posts in, and I can't decide whether to go serious, or adopt my usual frippery nonsense style that no one likes anyway. Add to that that all my images in the Flash thread seem to be sequentially disappearing and it all starts to seems a bit hopeless.

I may disappear for a bit, to recharge the batteries. 

Rich, you have my permission to write speculative screeds of text in my absence to keep everything ticking over. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Rich, you have my permission to write speculative screeds of text in my absence to keep everything ticking over. 

wait....wait.....has he gone? Phew. 

OK, everyone, you can come out now.  Now listen....I shall say this only once then delete it ....I was at a seance round at Doris Stokes' house (yes, I know she's dead, but she's Doris Stokes) and we summoned up Fred, Dennis, Ethel, everyone.  The secret of the numbers is.....

[Malacoda]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Rich, you have my permission to write speculative screeds of text in my absence to keep everything ticking over. 

Don't you worry, mate, I've got another 74 page hiatus theory that will have them on the edge of their seats. 

Wait, where did everyone go.....?

[Malacoda]

On 6/22/2022 at 5:15 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Rich, you have my permission to write speculative screeds of text in my absence to keep everything ticking over. 

OK, for the next few days, I will be filling in for Steve, so I will be playing the dual roles of myself and New Steve.  Please adjust your expectations accordingly. 

[Malacoda]

On 6/5/2022 at 3:55 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

On 6/5/2022 at 3:48 PM, Malacoda said:

Not least that when they first started getting the PV's printed, they actually removed the month from the cover, which would lead one to think that chronology was not part of the prima facie system. 

The suggestion for that has always been to prevent out of date books going on sale in the UK, i.e. past their cover date due to the shipping time. You think it was quick, as I recall, I think it was slow. At least in the early days.

Me:   OK, let’s see if we can put this one to bed. Most of the stats you see are for passenger-carrying ocean liners (although a lot of cargo, really a lot, was carried by the liners).  The liners did the trip in 5 – 7 days depending on the weather.   
“Shipping lines had different ambitions. Cunard went for fast, reliable ships, its express liners crossing in under five days. White star preferred luxury, arguing that its slower liners gave passengers an extra day to enjoy their floating hotel.”
Not much of relevance, but this article is a cracking read. 
https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/whatson/merseyside-maritime-museum/exhibition/liverpool-new-york-only-way-cross

New Steve: Right and you’d imagine, given that the liners are selling the journey rather than the arrival and the aim of cargo ships was to get the goods to the other side asap, that the cargo ships went faster, but not so.  Due to fuel economy, they went slower.  Where the liners maintained up to 23 knots, the cargo ships went about 12 to 20 knots. Which is why I think it took longer. 
 

Me:  For cargo ships, most sources I’ve found site 10 – 20 days as the min/max, with 12 – 14 days being the most often quoted. So literally twice as long as the liners.  During WW1, convoys from America to Britain took up to 16–18 days, but the convoy speed was governed by the speed of the slowest vessel, and they did a lot of zig-zagging in the Western Approaches (to avoid mines and U Boats).  So I think you could take 18 – 20 days as the absolute max. Whatever else our Marvel comics had to contend with, they didn’t spend an extra 3 days sailing round Dogger Bank trying to avoid being torpedoed by Captain Von Trapp.  
 

New Steve:  Right, but you’re missing a key element, which is that loading & offloading  by the stevedores could take anything up to 5 days at either end, so the actual import time has potentially another 10 days at the docks, plus the transport time at either end.  Waterbury to Port Elizabeth was only 106 road miles, but Sparta to Port Elizabeth is 957 miles, which is over 15 hours to drive, so you’ve got at least another 2 days there, maybe with multiple stops on the way.  The Royal Albert Dock to Oadby is about 125 miles, so in the pre-motorway days, about 3-4 hours.  So all told, you’ve got up to 2 weeks of additional journey time on top of the crossing. 

Me:  Right, so somewhere between 20 and 34 days – we’re talking about a monthly shipment here, aren’t we?  

New Steve: Yes, which fits fine with Old Steve’s calculation of 26 days on average in the stamping cycle. 

Me: I guess you’re right, New Steve. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Malacoda

[Get Marwood & I]

Who is this 'New Steve' fellow? He sounds like a right tosser.

 

Not dissimilar to the old one, really. 

[Get Marwood & I]

Here, I'm sitting in a park in Marylebone, knackered, after three hours at the comic fair. Just bought a high grade Wyatt Earp #29 cents copy. Told the bloke I had the pence version. He told me it wasn't worth sht.

Chap next to him said "I know all about them pence copies" and proceeded to waffle. 

It's good to know the word has spread isn't it