Grading Consistency 1 1

[JohnM2020]

Bottom line 'newbie' question up front:  Is there any appealing a grade?

BACKGROUND

Collection goes back many years and I realize there's a lot of storage considerations I should have done that I didn't.  Regardless, new to the whole pressing, grading and signature that is available in today's comic world.  I 'leaped' at the opportunity to have Claremont sign multiple comics and I am extremely disappointed in the hit/miss for grader notes and cannot understand the lack of consistency of grading IF you have grader notes (phone call to CGC disabused me of any notion that if you pay for grader notes you'll get them....).  Additionally, I paid for pressing on all comics sent in (yes, acknowledge all the chat room advice/commentary -- no guarantees on pressing).  I got back one of my comics grading out @ 5.0 which is about 3 grades below what this newbie's "untrained" eye and examination thought.  What I cannot understand is it came back with ONLY 2 grader notes!  

5.0

- light spine stress lines to cover
- moderate creasing to cover

Another comic had one note:

9.4

- light creasing to cover

Another comic had one note:

9.4

- light spine stress lines to cover

What really made come on line to ask this question is that I also had one comic I knew was in good condition at best and didn't have high expectations.  I just wanted the signature and was not surprised/disappointed when it came back 4.5, with LOTS of grader notes.

4.5
Grader Notes:
moderate creasing to cover
moderate spine stress lines to cover
moderate staining to cover
moderate wear all corners of cover
subscription crease back cover breaks color

[Raze]

Hi

First off Welcome to the boards!

I think this might get more eyes/views if it is in the general forum. It might generate a better dialogue with more people.

Also pics?scans are helpful! A lot of members here will point out flaws on books to help you better understand grading.

And if you want to learn more on grading look up and buy

The Overstreet Guide to Grading Comics! This was very useful in helping me when I started.

[Qalyar]

One thing to keep in mind is that CGC's "grader notes" system is... not what a lot of people expect. It is explicitly not a comprehensive catalog of the defects the graders detected. It is not an explanation of why the book got the grade it did. They are, literally, just the grader's notes; in the same way that some students might take more notes in their classes, some graders are more verbose. A lot of books, especially in the 9.x range, don't receive any notes at all. Many books with very obvious defects will not have those noted (presumably because they're self-evident to the grader and to us). And so forth.

Grader's notes are sometimes useful; I had a book where I'd missed a defect, and the grader's note was sufficient for me to see what went wrong. Likewise, I understand that a truly comprehensive defect index would slow the already-slow system down much, much further (and likely raise costs, which isn't really in anyone's interests). But I would rarely if ever pay for them.

 

 

[KCOComics]

As @Raze mentioned, there may be other forums where this will get more attention. The grading and restoration questions area comes to mind. 

That said, I was in a similar situation to you. I had collected for decades. I had bought a few slabs, but never submitted to CGC. When I started submitting, the grades I was getting made very little sense to me. Books I thought were high grade were coming back mid grade and books I thought were mid grade came back VF.  I even got a few PLODs that drove me crazy!!

This was one of the reasons I became active on the boards.  It was a great opportunity to learn about grading from the members of this community.  

I would suggest taking some photos of the books that surprised you and post them here without revealing the grade. Board members are usually happy to tell you what they see and why a book gets a certain grade.  

GL! 

[Funnybooks]

Welcome to the boards.

Experience is the best teacher. I would echo the suggestions above and suggest posting a book or two with pics of both the front cover and back cover to start. Boardies can examine the book and at least postulate perhaps the reasons the book came back in grade?

[theCapraAegagrus]

Wrong sub-forum.

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 hours ago, JohnM2020 said:

Bottom line 'newbie' question up front:  Is there any appealing a grade?

BACKGROUND

Collection goes back many years and I realize there's a lot of storage considerations I should have done that I didn't.  Regardless, new to the whole pressing, grading and signature that is available in today's comic world.  I 'leaped' at the opportunity to have Claremont sign multiple comics and I am extremely disappointed in the hit/miss for grader notes and cannot understand the lack of consistency of grading IF you have grader notes (phone call to CGC disabused me of any notion that if you pay for grader notes you'll get them....).  Additionally, I paid for pressing on all comics sent in (yes, acknowledge all the chat room advice/commentary -- no guarantees on pressing).  I got back one of my comics grading out @ 5.0 which is about 3 grades below what this newbie's "untrained" eye and examination thought.  What I cannot understand is it came back with ONLY 2 grader notes!  

5.0

- light spine stress lines to cover
- moderate creasing to cover

Another comic had one note:

9.4

- light creasing to cover

Another comic had one note:

9.4

- light spine stress lines to cover

What really made come on line to ask this question is that I also had one comic I knew was in good condition at best and didn't have high expectations.  I just wanted the signature and was not surprised/disappointed when it came back 4.5, with LOTS of grader notes.

4.5
Grader Notes:
moderate creasing to cover
moderate spine stress lines to cover
moderate staining to cover
moderate wear all corners of cover
subscription crease back cover breaks color

If you take a gander at CGC's vague grading scale:

VG/FN 5.0: "An average collectible with several moderate defects."

So, "moderate creasing" sounds to me like multiple moderate creases, and that would make sense for the grade given.

When comparing its notes to the 4.5's, you have to consider the amount and severity of defects. It seems to me that the 5.0's creasing is more severe and/or more present than the 4.5's. Of course, I will never know with out any visual references.

[Deadpoolica]

20 hours ago, JohnM2020 said:

which is about 3 grades below what this newbie's "untrained" eye and examination thought. 

and that's what happens

[Deadpoolica]

11 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

So, "moderate creasing" sounds to me like multiple moderate creases, and that would make sense for the grade given.

[The Lions Den]

Sorry you had such an unpleasant experience.  

But what the other board members have told you is all good advice. And you can send a book back in for a grade review, but most of the time it will end up getting the exact same grade. What I would suggest is learning as much as you can about grading by participating in the "Spare a Grade" forum as well as studying books posted here and on other sites such as eBay and Heritage. You'll find that CGC is actually pretty consistent, but there are many different graders and they all have their likes and dislikes.

I hope this has been helpful, and good luck...  

Edited September 16, 2020 by The Lions Den

[The Lions Den]

On 9/14/2020 at 11:24 PM, Qalyar said:

One thing to keep in mind is that CGC's "grader notes" system is... not what a lot of people expect. It is explicitly not a comprehensive catalog of the defects the graders detected. It is not an explanation of why the book got the grade it did. They are, literally, just the grader's notes; in the same way that some students might take more notes in their classes, some graders are more verbose. A lot of books, especially in the 9.x range, don't receive any notes at all. Many books with very obvious defects will not have those noted (presumably because they're self-evident to the grader and to us). And so forth.

Grader's notes are sometimes useful; I had a book where I'd missed a defect, and the grader's note was sufficient for me to see what went wrong. Likewise, I understand that a truly comprehensive defect index would slow the already-slow system down much, much further (and likely raise costs, which isn't really in anyone's interests). But I would rarely if ever pay for them.

 

 

It's unfortunate that the notes aren't taken quite as seriously these days by many of the graders. They used to give a pretty accurate account of the flaws the books had, but nowadays the graders are usually concentrating more on speed due to the high volume of books. And the graders used to actually type all the notes into the system until they made it so nearly any flaw can be accessed within a convenient drop down menu... *sigh*   

[Point Five]

On 9/16/2020 at 3:44 AM, The Lions Den said:

And the graders used to actually type all the notes into the system until they made it so nearly any flaw can be accessed within a convenient drop down menu... *sigh*   

Interesting! I'm picturing a grader grading an 8.0 book and pulling down the FUGLY FOXING ON BACK COVER option.

 

[mysterymachine]

On 9/15/2020 at 4:59 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If you take a gander at CGC's vague grading scale:

VG/FN 5.0: "An average collectible with several moderate defects."

So, "moderate creasing" sounds to me like multiple moderate creases, and that would make sense for the grade given.

When comparing its notes to the 4.5's, you have to consider the amount and severity of defects. It seems to me that the 5.0's creasing is more severe and/or more present than the 4.5's. Of course, I will never know with out any visual references.

The only thing that I question is how did a pressed book still have moderate creasing on the cover?

[comicginger1789]

9 minutes ago, mysterymachine said:

The only thing that I question is how did a pressed book still have moderate creasing on the cover?

If they were colour breaking creases a press wouldn’t do a lick of good so they’d still be there.

[rjpb]

2 hours ago, mysterymachine said:

The only thing that I question is how did a pressed book still have moderate creasing on the cover?

Pressing doesn't get rid of creases, it just flattens them out, possibly making them less evident (unless they break color, in which case they're still pretty evident). What it can take out are bends, wrinkles, waviness, and some dimples. But an actual crease is going to have compromised the fiber of the paper.

[theCapraAegagrus]

9 hours ago, mysterymachine said:

The only thing that I question is how did a pressed book still have moderate creasing on the cover?

Color-breaking.

[StreetPreacher]

On 9/17/2020 at 10:48 PM, rjpb said:

Pressing doesn't get rid of creases, it just flattens them out, possibly making them less evident (unless they break color, in which case they're still pretty evident). What it can take out are bends, wrinkles, waviness, and some dimples. But an actual crease is going to have compromised the fiber of the paper.

What would be your thoughts on fixing a minor crease such as this one on the corner of an otherwise solid ASM #316?  Would this severity of creasing be something that pressing could completely eliminate, or will it just make the cover lay completely flat, but still leave the crease visible?

[Randall Ries]

30 minutes ago, StreetPreacher said:

What would be your thoughts on fixing a minor crease such as this one on the corner of an otherwise solid ASM #316?  Would this severity of creasing be something that pressing could completely eliminate, or will it just make the cover lay completely flat, but still leave the crease visible?

It would lay flat but the white line would still be there. Something like that I wouldn't press just to have it lay flat. The slab will do that. If you choose to have it slabbed, of course.

[StreetPreacher]

5 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

It would lay flat but the white line would still be there. Something like that I wouldn't press just to have it lay flat. The slab will do that. If you choose to have it slabbed, of course.

Are you talking about the tiny damaged area at the very edge of the corner?  I was referring to the less severe, but longer 'fold' visible about an inch from the corner.  The longer crease doesn't appear to break colour at all, so was hoping that defect was something that pressing could fix?   Or is there some colour break that I'm not noticing?

[Randall Ries]

Just now, StreetPreacher said:

Are you talking about the tiny damaged area at the very edge of the corner?  I was referring to the less severe, but longer 'fold' visible about an inch from the corner.  The longer crease doesn't appear to break colour at all, so was hoping that defect was something that pressing could fix?   Or is there some colour break that I'm not noticing?

Oh I'm sorry! That should be able to be tamed. It isn't a wrinkle in the fabric of the paper and no color breakage so I don't see why not.