BATMAN 181 9.8 On Heritage 9.8? Small crease and case debris $50K 0

[bpc3qh]

3 minutes ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Where did the 9.8 sell in 2014? I couldn’t find that.

Cert number 1254648001 sold on 9/16/2014 for 11,000. GPA doesn't link to the auction itself. Among the 9.6s, cert number 1235237001 sold for 17,001 on 9/19/2017, and cert number 0780406002 sold for 15,000 on 7/20/2017. Again, no links to the auction.

[LDarkseid1]

6 minutes ago, bpc3qh said:

Cert number 1254648001 sold on 9/16/2014 for 11,000. GPA doesn't link to the auction itself. Among the 9.6s, cert number 1235237001 sold for 17,001 on 9/19/2017, and cert number 0780406002 sold for 15,000 on 7/20/2017. Again, no links to the auction.

Aww, I guess the benefit of GPA over Gocollect, doesn’t show some data.

[bluechip]

2 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Hey, you find me a bunch of 9.8’s of Batman 181, or even a 9.8 that’s ever sold and I’ll believe ya. And I get what you’re saying that there’s been a bunch of high grade sales, but there’s still going to be a massive difference between a graded 9.4, graded 9.6, or high grade raw.

Hey, people can believe whatever they want.  And they are free to WANT whatever they want whenever they want it.   And I won't get into how the question of subjectivity and rarity based on the subjective number grading of books as opposed to hard number rarity.  But I will say that in general the number of high grade copies of books, especially silver books, is far more likely to go up than down.   You don't have to search long or wide to find many examples of such.  So, if you say "find me a bunch of 9.8's (fill in the blank) ...and I'll believe ya," well, in the long run, somebody will, indeed, be able to do just that.  

None of which means you can't want the top number subjective grade holder and you want it now.  But you should do so knowing and understanding the difference between "rare because there's only x out there" and "rare because there's only x in a subjective holder with a certain number on it".  Also the diff between "rare today" and "rare forever".   

[LDarkseid1]

8 minutes ago, bluechip said:

Hey, people can believe whatever they want.  And they are free to WANT whatever they want whenever they want it.   And I won't get into how the question of subjectivity and rarity based on the subjective number grading of books as opposed to hard number rarity.  But I will say that in general the number of high grade copies of books, especially silver books, is far more likely to go up than down.   You don't have to search long or wide to find many examples of such.  So, if you say "find me a bunch of 9.8's (fill in the blank) ...and I'll believe ya," well, in the long run, somebody will, indeed, be able to do just that.  

None of which means you can't want the top number subjective grade holder and you want it now.  But you should do so knowing and understanding the difference between "rare because there's only x out there" and "rare because there's only x in a subjective holder with a certain number on it".  Also the diff between "rare today" and "rare forever".   

I guess. No matter what it is a rare book in 9.8.

[LDarkseid1]

Wow, what an unbelievable hammer! Would love to see what a 9.6 would go for now.

[comicdonna]

Last sale

$11000  Sep 2014

[bluechip]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:15 PM, LDarkseid1 said:

I guess. No matter what it is a rare book in 9.8.

You mean rare in a CGC 9.8 holder. 

Yes, CGC has standards and cachet, but you are still talking not about something that is rare at all in total numbers or scarce at all in copies which would look just as good to 99 out of a 100 people.   

Even if you were to accept the 9.8 grade as objectively infallible and inarguable, you should not expect the population of 3 will remain as low (based on what's happened in the past).   CGC itself has frequently attempted to warn people that all grading is inherently subjective and that census populations should not be taken as a forever and never-changing thing.

Sure this is a nice looking copy but this comes from a period in which virtually nobody was throwing books away. When they were printing vast numbers of books and even unsold books were no longer stripped but put into "comic packs" of four and sold for a (very slight) discount.  As I mentioned I saw such a pack with this book on the top and it looked absolutely perfect.  The price was 500 and I was told by the dealer by way of disclosure that it had come from a warehouse find. 

So forgive me or anyone else for saying it seems like 90K is a tad much -- considering that same price could get you a decent Batman 1 or an early detective that is rare not just subjectively but objectively.  You could buy multiple copies of Batman 181 that are objectively indistinguishable from this one by the overwhelming majority of people and have enough left over to buy several ultra early Batman books that don't exist in total numbers as much as the 181 exists in uber high  grade.      

Edited November 20, 2020 by bluechip

[LDarkseid1]

5 hours ago, bluechip said:

You mean rare in a CGC 9.8 holder. 

Yes, CGC has standards and cachet, but you are still talking not about something that is rare at all in total numbers or scarce at all in copies which would look just as good to 99 out of a 100 people.   

Even if you were to accept the 9.8 grade as objectively infallible and inarguable, you should not expect the population of 3 will remain as low (based on what's happened in the past).   CGC itself has frequently attempted to warn people that all grading is inherently subjective and that census populations should not be taken as a forever and never-changing thing.

Sure this is a nice looking copy but this comes from a period in which virtually nobody was throwing books away. When they were printing vast numbers of books and even unsold books were no longer stripped but put into "comic packs" of four and sold for a (very slight) discount.  As I mentioned I saw such a pack with this book on the top and it looked absolutely perfect.  The price was 500 and I was told by the dealer by way of disclosure that it had come from a warehouse find. 

So forgive me or anyone else for saying it seems like 90K is a tad much -- considering that same price could get you a decent Batman 1 or an early detective that is rare not just subjectively but objectively.  You could buy multiple copies of Batman 181 that are objectively indistinguishable from this one by the overwhelming majority of people and have enough left over to buy several ultra early Batman books that don't exist in total numbers as much as the 181 exists in uber high  grade.      

Grading is subjective of course. Your raw 9.8 may be my idea of a 9.4. I felt this was a solid 9.8, minus the fleck almost detached on the bottom right. That was a bit blah imop. But someone clearly thought it was worth $90K lol. I can tell you no one is paying anymore than a fraction of this sale for a high grade raw copy. The power of 9.8 is always impressive with these bigger keys. As far as your assumption there will likely be more 9.8’s, sure more may hit the census. I’d say likely it could be 1-3 more and over the span of 5-10 years. It’s not like they’re going to pop up like hot cakes.

Edited November 21, 2020 by LDarkseid1

[bpc3qh]

4 hours ago, bluechip said:

So forgive me or anyone else for saying it seems like 90K is a tad much -- considering that same price could get you a decent Batman 1 or an early detective that is rare not just subjectively but objectively.  You could buy multiple copies of Batman 181 that are objectively indistinguishable from this one by the overwhelming majority of people and have enough left over to buy several ultra early Batman books that don't exist in total numbers as much as the 181 exists in uber high  grade.      

I'm with you on this point--this is the kind of book where I'd happily settle for a 9.4, maybe even pay a premium for a copy that looks really good, and then use all that extra money on more high grade Batman books. If I'm gonna spend 90k, it's gonna be for something way more special than a Batman 181, I don't care what grade.

[LDarkseid1]

1 hour ago, bpc3qh said:

I'm with you on this point--this is the kind of book where I'd happily settle for a 9.4, maybe even pay a premium for a copy that looks really good, and then use all that extra money on more high grade Batman books. If I'm gonna spend 90k, it's gonna be for something way more special than a Batman 181, I don't care what grade.

I’m sure most people would feel this way.

[lou_fine]

7 hours ago, LDarkseid1 said:

9 hours ago, bluechip said:

You mean rare in a CGC 9.8 holder. 

Yes, CGC has standards and cachet, but you are still talking not about something that is rare at all in total numbers or scarce at all in copies which would look just as good to 99 out of a 100 people.   

Even if you were to accept the 9.8 grade as objectively infallible and inarguable, you should not expect the population of 3 will remain as low (based on what's happened in the past).   CGC itself has frequently attempted to warn people that all grading is inherently subjective and that census populations should not be taken as a forever and never-changing thing.

Sure this is a nice looking copy but this comes from a period in which virtually nobody was throwing books away. When they were printing vast numbers of books and even unsold books were no longer stripped but put into "comic packs" of four and sold for a (very slight) discount.  As I mentioned I saw such a pack with this book on the top and it looked absolutely perfect.  The price was 500 and I was told by the dealer by way of disclosure that it had come from a warehouse find. 

So forgive me or anyone else for saying it seems like 90K is a tad much -- considering that same price could get you a decent Batman 1 or an early detective that is rare not just subjectively but objectively.  You could buy multiple copies of Batman 181 that are objectively indistinguishable from this one by the overwhelming majority of people and have enough left over to buy several ultra early Batman books that don't exist in total numbers as much as the 181 exists in uber high  grade.      

Grading is subjective of course. Your raw 9.8 may be my idea of a 9.4. I felt this was a solid 9.8, minus the fleck almost detached on the bottom right. That was a bit blah imop. But someone clearly thought it was worth $90K lol. I can tell you no one is paying anymore than a fraction of this sale for a high grade raw copy. The power of 9.8 is always impressive with these bigger keys. As far as your assumption there will likely be more 9.8’s, sure more may hit the census. I’d say likely it could be 1-3 more and over the span of 5-10 years. It’s not like they’re going to pop up like hot cakes.

 

As per my earlier post in another thread on this particular auction result:  

5 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Don't you absolutely love these CGC label collectors, especially when it would be hilarious if the 9.8 copy had started out its certification life as only a CGC 9.0 copy?  

With a result like this, all I can say is that somebody must have really overdosed themselves drinking down all of that CGC Kool-Aid.      

The happiest people at this $90K result must be the other 2 collectors who also have CGC 9.8 graded copies of this particular book here.    

Especially when you are playing in the deep end of the grading company's pool here in terms of their facilitating and encouraging the maximization of potential along with other forms of artificial manipulation.  After all, haven't we seem so many examples of these kinds of upgrades over the years, and yet the CGC label collectors continues to happily dig deeper and even deeper into their pockets to pay for the label?  

Then again, I guess it's all good as it's really a case of to each, their own.  

[Gotham Kid]

90k for this book is completely stupid

[LDarkseid1]

6 hours ago, lou_fine said:

 

As per my earlier post in another thread on this particular auction result:  

Especially when you are playing in the deep end of the grading company's pool here in terms of their facilitating and encouraging the maximization of potential along with other forms of artificial manipulation.  After all, haven't we seem so many examples of these kinds of upgrades over the years, and yet the CGC label collectors continues to happily dig deeper and even deeper into their pockets to pay for the label?  

Then again, I guess it's all good as it's really a case of to each, their own.  

“To each their own” is the only opinion that ultimately matters to me. We all talk constantly and give our opinions about these super high grade, mega sales, which is what makes these auctions fun to a degree of course. More often than not though everyone on here doesn’t seem to agree with them or understand these sales, which kind of cracks me up. I just think it’s cool to see the industry progress like this. Super impressive that someone paid $90K for this book. Would I do it, hell no lol! But clearly 2 buyers had at it.

[Randall Ries]

Robin Williams said "If you are buying a Batman 181 CGC 9.8 @ $100k, that's God's way of saying you have too much money."

[bronze johnny]

Winning the auction for this book is one thing and this is a ridiculous price .

Curious to see if the winner pays for the book

[BlowUpTheMoon]

On 11/19/2020 at 3:07 PM, bluechip said:

uncirculated copies in comic packs.

@greggy had a four pack with this book in it. 

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, LDarkseid1 said:

But clearly 2 buyers had at it.

Well, for the winner's sake, let's hope it was truly a real case of 2 legitimate bidders going after the book here.  

[LDarkseid1]

2 hours ago, bronze johnny said:

Winning the auction for this book is one thing and this is a ridiculous price .

Curious to see if the winner pays for the book

Is that like a thing? I’ve never heard of a book not getting paid for when in a Heritage, C-Link or CC auction. Seems like they keep a pretty tight ship when it comes to stuff like that. eBay on the other hands happens all the time.

[DanCooper]

Coming soon to a Heritage theater near you! (January 2021. Auction description/detail not yet loaded on Heritage. A Pennyworth though)

The heir apparent to take the crown from this Bat 181?

https://comics.ha.com/itm/silver-age-1956-1969-//p/7239-12008.s?ic4=ListView-Thumbnail-071515

[bronze johnny]

1 hour ago, LDarkseid1 said:

Is that like a thing? I’ve never heard of a book not getting paid for when in a Heritage, C-Link or CC auction. Seems like they keep a pretty tight ship when it comes to stuff like that. eBay on the other hands happens all the time.

Here’s one example: A seller can put a book up for auction. Bid on it and win. They only have to pay the auction house the auction fee. No need to pay themselves for the book since they already own it. And they can drive the price of the book up. Lesser informed buyers won’t see it and immediately accept the auction price as the new fair market value of the book. Then maybe they head over to ebay. 
 

Edited November 21, 2020 by bronze johnny