Another Overstreet question 1 1

[GlennSimpson]

Again, aware of that.  There are still a variety of flaws that are not clearly described.

[William-James88]

1 hour ago, GlennSimpson said:

That search only results in links to places to BUY the guide.  I have the guide - I want more information than what is in the guide.  What are "a limited number", "a minor accumulation", etc?

Doesn't the guide provide a bunch of images for each grade? I used the guide when I worked for a jeweler who sold other valuables on ebay, such as comics and I felt it was enough. We never had anyone coming back to us saying the grade was wrong.

 

Anyways, if it's for insurance purposes, just tell them how much you'd want back, no need to be conservative about it. Plus you never know if some books you own suddenly become more popular and thus more expensive, making you under insurred. I'd just pick a number and divide it equally.

 

As for valuing your collection so that your wife can sell it if anything happens, that really doesn't help. No dealer will care for that price, they just look at the bigger books you have and estimate worth that way. 

[GlennSimpson]

8 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

Doesn't the guide provide a bunch of images for each grade? I used the guide when I worked for a jeweler who sold other valuables on ebay, such as comics and I felt it was enough. We never had anyone coming back to us saying the grade was wrong.

It does, but they don't really "zoom in" to indicate the specifics of the flaws.  

Edited January 30, 2021 by GlennSimpson

[thehumantorch]

3 hours ago, GlennSimpson said:

Hey guys!  Sorry, I was away from home for work for several days and didn't really have a chance to read and update.

First, it's Glenn, not Greg.   Usually people call me Chris when they get it wrong, but all good.

OK, I am not planning on submitting (well, maybe eventually a few, but not really the main thing).  I am also not really planning on selling any time soon.  Here is what I am trying to do:

I have my comics insured with www.collectinsure.com.   The way they work is, you tell them the value of your collection, they tell you how much it will cost, and you write them a check every year.  No lists, no appraisals.  

I have inquired with them how they handle it if I make a claim.  They basically would not tell me what their valuation criteria is.  They have their methods for determining what the value of my comics (based on the list of issues and grades I would provide at that point).  

So when I started, just based on rough "everything from the 80's is in 8.0" sort of grading to get a general idea, it's around $100,000.  But I decided I wanted to grade and value them more precisely.  If the accurately-graded-and-valued collection is likely to only be valued at $45,000, then I have wasted money insuring it at $100,000.   If the same is valued at $150,000, then I don't want to not get that $50,000 in that situation.  

So I picked Overstreet for values, since that's a more long-time industry standard that is likely to be used, particularly with raw books.  So then, it's just a matter of grading accurately.  Which is most important for telling 9.0 from 9.2, because that's where the bulk of the Overstreet values make a difference.  Which brings us back to the original issue, where the Overstreet criteria is vague but further information found online is likely to be CGC-reverse-engineering.

Aside from the insurance, I would just like to know what it's worth.  And grading-wise, if something DID happen to me, I would want my wife to be able to show a potential buyer an impressive amount of information.

So that's the whys and wherefores.  I hate to ask questions about grading for purposes other than CGC on a CGC board, but I haven't really found other resources for asking questions.  Hell, I had to start an r/comicbookgrading subreddit myself.

Okay, now I understand why you're trying to grade and value your collection.

There's more information on comic grading today than any time in the past.  A youtube search gives us many results. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+grade+comic+book

 

You could spend days watching videos and you'd likely be more confused than when you started.  We're never all gonna agree on how to grade a book and any fool can post a video and some do.  There's a lot of bad information out there.  CGC is an attempt to standardize grading.  Overall they do a decent job but they aren't perfect and there are many resubmitted books that come back a different grade than the original.

To be honest I wouldn't insure a collection of low value books but since that's important to you I see no option other than to grade each and every book.  I would expect that the insurance company would require a list of books and condition of each book if you were to make a claim.  I'm not sure how they would respond if you sent in a list and an average grade of say 9.0.  I'm also not sure what the insurance company would pay out if you made a claim even if you had sent in a de"tailed list including grades.

would want my wife to be able to show a potential buyer an impressive amount of information."

If a potential buyer looks at your collection your impressive amount of information won't matter.  For a large bulk collection you'll need to find a dealer or someone willing to act as a dealer.  Expecting him to inventory and grade tens of thousands of books worth $4 or less in guide is a mistake.  He will flip through the boxes, look for books of significant value, get a rough indication of grade, and make an offer of approximately 10 cents a book for the bulk.  Trust me, I've been collecting for 40 years, selling at shows for 14 years and I've bought dozens of large collections

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GlennSimpson]

11 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

Okay, now I understand why you're trying to grade and value your collection.

There's more information on comic grading today than any time in the past.  A youtube search gives us many results. 

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+grade+comic+book

 

You could spend days watching videos and you'd likely be more confused than when you started.  We're never all gonna agree on how to grade a book and any fool can post a video and some do.  There's a lot of bad information out there.  CGC is an attempt to standardize grading.  Overall they do a decent job but they aren't perfect and there are many resubmitted books that come back a different grade than the original.

To be honest I wouldn't insure a collection of low value books but since that's important to you I see no option other than to grade each and every book.  I would expect that the insurance company would require a list of books and condition of each book if you were to make a claim.  I'm not sure how they would respond if you sent in a list and an average grade of say 9.0.  I'm also not sure what the insurance company would pay out if you made a claim even if you had sent in a de"tailed list including grades.

would want my wife to be able to show a potential buyer an impressive amount of information."

If a potential buyer looks at your collection your impressive amount of information won't matter.  For a large bulk collection you'll need to find a dealer or someone willing to act as a dealer.  Expecting him to inventory and grade tens of thousands of books worth $4 or less in guide is a mistake.  He will flip through the boxes, look for books of significant value, get a rough indication of grade, and make an offer of approximately 10 cents a book for the bulk.  Trust me, I've been collecting for 40 years, selling at shows for 14 years and I've bought dozens of large collections

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm very familiar with the information on grading on YouTube, but those are all extrapolation around CGC grades, not Overstreet.  There's not much of anything where people are specifically zooming in on books and showing flaws and correlating them specifically to Overstreet grades.

As for insurance, I am already grading the entire collection, that's kinda the point.  The insurance company would indeed require a list of comics and their grades.  My understanding is that I would give them the list with the grades, and obviously the amount that they were insured for, and they confirm if that amount was reasonable (although the problem is they will not reveal ahead of time the method they use for that evaluation).  There are some additional statements about what would happen if there was a disagreement on the amount, involving hiring other appraisers and some such.  Thus I am having to make some guesses on how much to insure it for - not too much or I am wasting money, too little and I am losing money later.  I've been buying about 75% of DC and 50% of Marvel's output for the last 40 years or so, it seems unreasonable to just completely let all of that get sunk in a fire.

I am also well aware of how it would go if someone was coming in to buy.  I still, out of pride if nothing else, would like to have them all accurately graded and valued.

I guess I am in just a weird sweet spot between investor and collector and reader.

Edited January 30, 2021 by GlennSimpson

[Lightning55]

1 hour ago, thehumantorch said:

Sorry Glenn, for some reason I saw Greg.

You got it from me in a post before yours (very sorry, Glenn).

I have worked in the insurance industry.  They go by REPLACEMENT COST when paying a claim for tangible items.  And  you are are correct, you will have to show some type of inventory to start the process, otherwise they don't even know what was lost.

Replacement cost means that they are NOT going to pay you Retail value, but what someone in the trade/hobby could expect to pay to recoup the collection.  That would encompass someone buying large bulk runs, and then hunting down specific key issues if not there.  That's the amount in play. 

This is not irreplaceable, one-of-a-kind art or similar treasure.  It's like when you insure the contents of your home separately.  You walk around with a camera showing what your belongings look like, the quality, the brand names, the scope of what is being covered.

And you can do this the same way.  For comics of low value, $1-$5, Have someone hold a camera filming, as you briskly flip through them, showing the cover.  It'll take only a few minutes per box.  Then assign a reasonable value to that box by average grade, and catalogue that.

If you have a fire or flood, you are not going to lose a single particular comic in a box.  You are going to lose the box, or half of the box, or most of the box, or a clump in the box.  You would never need the price of a comic listed individually, unless it had significant value.

If it has value, store it with others of similar value and use the same procedure.  Like "this box has only comics that are worth $25-$50".  So you can use the same method until you get to even more valuable stuff, but even then, get an image on video so that there is no question of what it is, what version, that it actually existed.

The better stuff, just grade as close as you can.  You will be a bit high on some, a bit low on others, it won't matter.  Opinions always vary anyway.  If you want to, estimate slightly on the higher side.  If they try to work your number down, at least you started at a higher point.  Don't go too high, as you will lose credibility.

If your heart is set on grading tens of thousands of comics super-accurately, then give it a shot.  How you spend your time is your choice, not for us to say.  It is a tedious, daunting, mission.  But at least it's working with comics, which has a fun side.

 

 

[William-James88]

35 minutes ago, Lightning55 said:

If it has value, store it with others of similar value and use the same procedure.  Like "this box has only comics that are worth $25-$50".  

I do that myself just in case something happens and I can grab what I am looking for faster. 

[GlennSimpson]

I do have a box of everything $21+ (which is the point at which I have around ~300 books so it all fits in one box, used to be $20+ but had to pull some as I started pressing and generating more that qualify).  I have thought about doing the next box (I'd have to see what the numbers would be, like $17-$20 or something).

The insurance company has never said anything about requiring photo evidence, but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I spend a lot of time going through my comics anyway.  In the old days it was adding content and creator information to online databases, now it is grading and other things.  So dedicating the time isn't too much of an issue.  Just mainly that 9.0/9.2 break that is frustrating, along with some flaws that are unclear in terms of ramifications.

 

[thehumantorch]

2 hours ago, GlennSimpson said:

I do have a box of everything $21+ (which is the point at which I have around ~300 books so it all fits in one box, used to be $20+ but had to pull some as I started pressing and generating more that qualify).  I have thought about doing the next box (I'd have to see what the numbers would be, like $17-$20 or something).

The insurance company has never said anything about requiring photo evidence, but it certainly couldn't hurt.

I spend a lot of time going through my comics anyway.  In the old days it was adding content and creator information to online databases, now it is grading and other things.  So dedicating the time isn't too much of an issue.  Just mainly that 9.0/9.2 break that is frustrating, along with some flaws that are unclear in terms of ramifications.

 

40 years is a long time.  That explains your attachment to your collection and your reason for wanting to insure it all.  I think you'd be better off just insuring your best stuff but ultimately that's a personal decision.

Not sure if you're aware of threads like:

 

 

 

If not there's a ton of info here and you might fill a few more boxes of valuable books.

[GlennSimpson]

Thanks for the info.  I tend to focus on completing runs primarily - if something winds up being valuable, so be it.

[Randall Dowling]

1 hour ago, GlennSimpson said:

Thanks for the info.  I tend to focus on completing runs primarily - if something winds up being valuable, so be it.

FWIW, I think you may have gotten a bad piece of information earlier.  Somebody earlier said to use Overstreet grading standards for raw books, however, in my experience,  if you do, you're more likely to have some unhappy buyers.  Most serious collectors today are pretty well on board with CGC grading standards- for both raw and graded books.  I honestly can't remember the last time someone brought up Overstreet grading to me as the preferred way to grade.

Having said all of this, my impression is that Overstreet is less strict for high grade books than CGC.  But there is some interpretation of Overstreet that would be in alignment with CGC grading.  It would just be a strict one.  And frankly, most of my friends are actually stricter than CGC in their grading...

[Lightning55]

From this page, CGC Grading Scale https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/ , this is CGC's reference for a NM- 9.2: A very well-preserved collectible with some wear and small manufacturing or handling defects.

This is Overstreet's: 9.2 NEAR MINT– (NM–): Nearly perfect with only a minor additional defect or defects that keep it from Near Mint. A limited number of minor bindery/printing defects are allowed. A light, barely noticeable water stain or slight foxing that does not detract from the beauty of the book is acceptable for this grade. Cover is flat with (almost) no surface wear. Inks are bright with only the slightest dimming of reflectivity. Generally well centered and firmly secured to interior pages. Corners are cut square and sharp with ever-so-slight blunting permitted. A 1/16-1/8" bend is permitted with no color break. No creases. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. No soiling, staining or other discoloration apart from some slight foxing. Spine is tight and flat. No spine roll or split allowed. Staples may show some discoloration. No staple tears are allowed; almost no stress lines. No rust migration. In rare cases, a comic was not stapled at the bindery and therefore has a missing staple; this is not considered a defect. Any staple can be replaced on books up to Fine, but only vintage staples can be used on books from Very Fine to Near Mint. Mint books must have original staples. Paper is (no worse than) off-white to cream, supple and fresh. No hint of acidity in the odor of the newsprint. Centerfold is firmly secure. Slight interior tears are allowed.

It's like night and day.

[William-James88]

On 1/30/2021 at 9:50 PM, Randall Dowling said:

FWIW, I think you may have gotten a bad piece of information earlier.  Somebody earlier said to use Overstreet grading standards for raw books, however, in my experience,  if you do, you're more likely to have some unhappy buyers.  Most serious collectors today are pretty well on board with CGC grading standards- for both raw and graded books.

I have used Overstreet grading standards for raw books all my life because CGC standards only apply to books in CGC cases. And I have never had an unhappy buyer, ever. Heritage Auction, the biggest auction house in this business uses Overstreet standards (their grading guideline is a copy paste of the overstreet guide, as is My Comic Shop's). If it's an ungraded book, giving it a CGC grade and selling it raw makes no sense. I would highly discourage anyone paying more for a raw book because someone said it's a 9.8. If someone's gonna charge me the price a CGC 9.8 sold on e-bay, that book better be in a CGC case with 9.8 as the grade. 

[William-James88]

On 1/30/2021 at 10:23 PM, Lightning55 said:

From this page, CGC Grading Scale https://www.cgccomics.com/grading/grading-scale/ , this is CGC's reference for a NM- 9.2: A very well-preserved collectible with some wear and small manufacturing or handling defects.

This is Overstreet's: 9.2 NEAR MINT– (NM–): Nearly perfect with only a minor additional defect or defects that keep it from Near Mint. A limited number of minor bindery/printing defects are allowed. A light, barely noticeable water stain or slight foxing that does not detract from the beauty of the book is acceptable for this grade. Cover is flat with (almost) no surface wear. Inks are bright with only the slightest dimming of reflectivity. Generally well centered and firmly secured to interior pages. Corners are cut square and sharp with ever-so-slight blunting permitted. A 1/16-1/8" bend is permitted with no color break. No creases. Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location. No soiling, staining or other discoloration apart from some slight foxing. Spine is tight and flat. No spine roll or split allowed. Staples may show some discoloration. No staple tears are allowed; almost no stress lines. No rust migration. In rare cases, a comic was not stapled at the bindery and therefore has a missing staple; this is not considered a defect. Any staple can be replaced on books up to Fine, but only vintage staples can be used on books from Very Fine to Near Mint. Mint books must have original staples. Paper is (no worse than) off-white to cream, supple and fresh. No hint of acidity in the odor of the newsprint. Centerfold is firmly secure. Slight interior tears are allowed.

It's like night and day.

That's why I recommend using overstreet, it is an actual guide to grading. CGC's standards are purposefully vague. Since we only have Overstreet available, that's what I use. 

Granted, @Randall Dowling mentioned high grade books and yes beyond 9.2 I think overstreet doesn't really work. Afterall, their Price Guide does not go beyond 9.2 and I never felt comfortable pricing a raw book beyond the 9.2 grade. That said I wouldn't use the non existant CGC grading system to grade and price a raw book beyond a 9.2 either. If I want my client to pay me 9.4, 9.6, 9.4 CGC prices, I have to give them a 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 CGC graded book.

Most on e-bay seem to do the same though, by writing 9.2 or higher, so I think many in the industry came to the same conclusion. Plus, easy way to avoid returns.

Edited February 2, 2021 by William-James88

[Lightning55]

And what ARE the CGC standards???  I don't see them laying them out like Overstreet does, at least attempting to quantify demerits for certain specific, measurable defects. 

I see the CGC Grading Scale, but that has absolutely no specifics.  Might as well say "nicer comics get better grades" and leave it at that. 

What say you @The Lions Den??  I believe you used to be a CGC grader.  They HAD to give you some basis to work from, right?

 

[Lightning55]

3 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

That's why I recommend using overstreet, it is an actual guide to grading. CGC's standards are purposefully vague. Since we only have Overstreet available, that's what I use. 

Granted, @Randall Dowling mentioned high grade books and yes beyond 9.2 I think overstreet doesn't really work. Afterall, their Price Guide does not go beyond 9.2 and I never felt comfortable pricing a raw book beyond the 9.2 grade. That said I wouldn't use the no existant CGC grading system to grade and price a raw book beyond a 9.2 either. If I want my client to pay me 9.4, 9.6, 9.4 CGC prices, I have to give them a 9.4, 9.6, 9.8 CGC graded book.

Most on e-bay seem to do the same though, by writing 9.2 or higher, so I think many in the industry came to the same conclusion. Plus, easy way to avoid returns.

The PRICES don't go above 9.2, but their GRADING DEFINITIONS page in each price guide goes up to 10.0, and very comprehensively.  I think a 9.8 CGC matches up well to the 9.8 Overstreet description. 

[William-James88]

2 hours ago, Lightning55 said:

The PRICES don't go above 9.2, but their GRADING DEFINITIONS page in each price guide goes up to 10.0, and very comprehensively. 

I know. Glad to meet a fellow Overstreet fan. I have fond memories of learning to grade with that book. And CGC based their standards on Overstreet when they started so them matching makes sense.

Edited February 2, 2021 by William-James88

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Lightning55 said:

The PRICES don't go above 9.2, but their GRADING DEFINITIONS page in each price guide goes up to 10.0, and very comprehensively.  I think a 9.8 CGC matches up well to the 9.8 Overstreet description. 

This is a very good point.

If Glenn's 9.0 are worth $1 and his 9.2 are worth $4, then his books in grades 9.4 and better are worth more and he needs to identify and grade those books.

[William-James88]

2 hours ago, thehumantorch said:

This is a very good point.

If Glenn's 9.0 are worth $1 and his 9.2 are worth $4, then his books in grades 9.4 and better are worth more and he needs to identify and grade those books.

I wouldn't go all crazy on this. Remember its for insurance purposes. When it comes to premiums on high grade books, you'd have to prove those premiums with a cgc slab.

Edited February 2, 2021 by William-James88

[The Lions Den]

3 hours ago, Lightning55 said:

And what ARE the CGC standards???  I don't see them laying them out like Overstreet does, at least attempting to quantify demerits for certain specific, measurable defects. 

I see the CGC Grading Scale, but that has absolutely no specifics.  Might as well say "nicer comics get better grades" and leave it at that. 

What say you @The Lions Den??  I believe you used to be a CGC grader.  They HAD to give you some basis to work from, right?

 

A valid question...I hope I can provide a valid answer.

I'm a student of Overstreet as well---I had an OWL card and I owned a copy of the Overstreet grading guide. So that was my first real exposure to the actual grading of books on a numerical scale. 

But CGC has always had their own guidelines for grading. And from what I was told, CGC used a variety of different sources to come up with their grading standards, including (but not limited to) Overstreet standards. There are certain flaws that CGC will allow within certain grades, but each book is unique and there are times where the lines between grades become somewhat blurry. 

The basis I had to work from was my own grading experience along with all the information I learned from the grading guide. I rarely utilized CGC's written standards, partly because I've always liked to "wing it" and partly because I felt I could usually arrive at an accurate grade without any help. One thing I can tell you for sure---there are distinct differences between all the higher grades, but the differences become more miniscule the higher you go. But since those are the type of books I collect, I've had greater exposure to the different flaws that can make or break those grades. 

This may come as a surprise, but there was a grading test associated with becoming a grader at CGC. If you passed, they were willing to take a chance on you. After that, the hard part was learning how to fine tune your grading skills. For me, this was the hardest part of the process, because if you couldn't make that leap you'd probably struggle forever. I did see folks that bombed out, and it wasn't pretty---there's nothing quite as embarrassing as having each one of your grades examined by the experts and deemed inappropriate. So the basis to work from was to know your stuff right from the get-go and learn the finer points quickly...