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What's in your "long term speculation" box?
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Started by BoogieWoogie,

222 posts in this topic

D2

D2

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On 4/19/2023 at 10:06 AM, Dalehamblin said:

Actually it’s really interesting to read,and good information. I’ve been looking these up myself and I’ve seen there’s some variant covers also I think the #6 has a 1:25 but not sure. 

There is a variant by Gary Frank which is well done. 

Outside of the sketch variant which I am obviously very much a fan of, they also have the 2nd print and combo pack variant of issue 6. 

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GeeksAreMyPeeps

GeeksAreMyPeeps

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On 4/19/2023 at 10:03 AM, D2 said:

I’m actually shocked they haven’t yet since the debate on the 1st appearance has been happening for easily 7 years already. 
They do need to take a stand on which is the final appearance (I believe 6 is the first full). 

Issue 2 is the 1st Talon, also awesome, but for whatever reason, The Court of Owls seems to be more intriguing for collectors and fans, and Talon seems to be just an arm (or talon) of them. 2 does have the first cameo for COW.

I think true COW fans should have 1, 2, 3, and 6. 1 being William Cobb, the 1st Talon, 3 being the first cover of Talon… 


Sorry for the long response, I’m actually a huge fan of this topic and debate so you really got me going lol

I really wish CGC wouldn't take a stand at all, when it's not clearcut. Let collectors decide what issue is important to them.

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Dalehamblin

Dalehamblin

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On 4/19/2023 at 5:32 PM, CheeseFrog said:

Evidently Darth Vader 3 (2015) is in my long term... do something with Aphra already! :D 

I was always tempted with that book when the larocca variant was £100 but decided against it. And still haven’t bought into thwarn probably should buy in on both 

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D2

D2

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On 4/19/2023 at 10:48 AM, PeterPark said:

Always go with the combo pack. 


I do love the combo pack variant. It’s the eyes!

Out of all of them, my heart will always be with the sketch covers though. Especially issue 6, where it’s the pencil version. 😍

On 4/19/2023 at 11:35 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

I really wish CGC wouldn't take a stand at all, when it's not clearcut. Let collectors decide what issue is important to them.

I see what you mean. This would directly conflict with CGC’s business model lol

But all joking aside, I’ve reread these books over and over, and went through critically, when the debate first happened, to make a clear stance for myself…

There is a very clear cut definitive, obvious choice. If you go page by page…

 

Issue 1 is the first full appearance of Lincoln March (aka last Talon of storyline)
      Owl is mentioned, on a throwing knife

Issue 2 is the first full appearance of Talon (aka William Cobb)
      The Court of Owls is mentioned three times by name, with their official symbol revealed  

Issue 3 is the first cover appearance of Talon
       The Court of Owls is mentioned twice again and their symbol is shown three times again
        The Court of Owls is shown for the first time in two separate photographs (cameo)

Issue 4, The Court of Owls is shown (3 members) in a tv screen once (cameo)

Issue 5, The Court of Owls is shown (from behind, back of their heads) once (cameo)

Issue 6 is the first full appearance of the COO. The Court is throughout the book, centre stage. 

Edited by D2
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D2

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So to piggy back on my Court of Owls analysis, I ask myself...

What is a cameo and what is a 1st full appearance?

I think the way to define a cameo is when the character(s) in question are shown, visibly, but are not actually "engaged" in the story itself. 
As an example, which is popular in Silver and Bronze age comic books, typical character reveals on the last page, as a cliffhanger, for readers to be engaged to buy the following issue. The cameo is designed to set up the engagement of the character(s) and story, in question.

If there is an engagement with other character(s), whether it be 1 page (if said character(s) comes into the story plot and turns the tide, engaging) or many pages, this would be a first appearance (full). I use the word full, because people define appearances in two steps, which I do not. It's either a cameo, or a full, there is no cameo/appearance/full appearance transition in my eyes.

So I then ask:

If I bought a comic book, do I think seeing a character in a picture, is engaging the character/story? No.
If I see character(s) on a tv screen, no. If I see the back of their heads, no. In none of the 3 examples, are they actually engaged and interacting. They are setting things up, setting up the tone, the tension, the stakes, the scene... these are all setups. 

I struggle defining things, so I press on the word engage, or engagement. Engaging.

When there is an engagement, not an introduction, or a setup, then that is involvement in the story and an appearance, which is full. 

Edited by D2
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captainzombie

captainzombie

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On 4/19/2023 at 1:12 PM, Dalehamblin said:

Just seen the combo pack and I do like it. Also going by what you’re saying above #6 is the first appearance but they still don’t have it on there slabs so it’s not concrete yet, but that is the book that’s 99% right. 

I am surprised they don't have it on their slabs either. Out of all the #6's I have bought over the last 2 years, I could never score one that would get a 9.8. Every single time they'd come back a 9.6 or there was enough defects not worth sending in. I finally gave up months ago and bought one off of eBay. Out of all the New 52 Batman run where I have the first 8 books in a 9.8 from me pressing, cleaning, and submitting to CGC this book always alluded me. I have the same issues with Venom vs. Carnage #2, for the life of me I can never get above a 9.4 since these books always have some color breaking tics or way too much color rub in the back.

Back to the topic at hand, too bad that we do not have a definitive answer on which is the first full appearance of the COO's. It does almost seem like the market has moved towards #6.

It is like ASM #299 and #300, where Todd McFarlane says that 299 is Venom's first appearance while the market says its 300. Don't get me wrong, but if the creator of the character comes out and says its 299 why is that not taken as gospel since he created the character and in his view it is.

Edited by captainzombie
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PeterPark

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On 4/19/2023 at 7:22 PM, captainzombie said:

I am surprised they don't have it on their slabs either. Out of all the #6's I have bought over the last 2 years, I could never score one that would get a 9.8. Every single time they'd come back a 9.6 or there was enough defects not worth sending in. I finally gave up months ago and bought one off of eBay. Out of all the New 52 Batman run where I have the first 8 books in a 9.8 from me pressing, cleaning, and submitting to CGC this book always alluded me. I have the same issues with Venom vs. Carnage #2, for the life of me I can never get above a 9.4 since these books always have some color breaking tics or way too much color rub in the back.

Back to the topic at hand, too bad that we do not have a definitive answer on which is the first full appearance of the COO's. It does almost seem like the market has moved towards #6.

It is like ASM #299 and #300, where Todd McFarlane says that 299 is Venom's first appearance while the market says its 300. Don't get me wrong, but if the creator of the character comes out and says its 299 why is that not taken as gospel since he created the character and in his view it is.

It's almost like he knew that when he drew Venom into the comic, Venom would be in the comic...

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Dalehamblin

Dalehamblin

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On 4/20/2023 at 12:22 AM, captainzombie said:

I am surprised they don't have it on their slabs either. Out of all the #6's I have bought over the last 2 years, I could never score one that would get a 9.8. Every single time they'd come back a 9.6 or there was enough defects not worth sending in. I finally gave up months ago and bought one off of eBay. Out of all the New 52 Batman run where I have the first 8 books in a 9.8 from me pressing, cleaning, and submitting to CGC this book always alluded me. I have the same issues with Venom vs. Carnage #2, for the life of me I can never get above a 9.4 since these books always have some color breaking tics or way too much color rub in the back.

Back to the topic at hand, too bad that we do not have a definitive answer on which is the first full appearance of the COO's. It does almost seem like the market has moved towards #6.

It is like ASM #299 and #300, where Todd McFarlane says that 299 is Venom's first appearance while the market says its 300. Don't get me wrong, but if the creator of the character comes out and says its 299 why is that not taken as gospel since he created the character and in his view it is.

I think I’ve read that because 300 is the landmark issue and it’s a nicer classic cover that it got the first appearance.

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GeeksAreMyPeeps

GeeksAreMyPeeps

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On 4/19/2023 at 7:22 PM, captainzombie said:

I am surprised they don't have it on their slabs either. Out of all the #6's I have bought over the last 2 years, I could never score one that would get a 9.8. Every single time they'd come back a 9.6 or there was enough defects not worth sending in. I finally gave up months ago and bought one off of eBay. Out of all the New 52 Batman run where I have the first 8 books in a 9.8 from me pressing, cleaning, and submitting to CGC this book always alluded me. I have the same issues with Venom vs. Carnage #2, for the life of me I can never get above a 9.4 since these books always have some color breaking tics or way too much color rub in the back.

Back to the topic at hand, too bad that we do not have a definitive answer on which is the first full appearance of the COO's. It does almost seem like the market has moved towards #6.

It is like ASM #299 and #300, where Todd McFarlane says that 299 is Venom's first appearance while the market says its 300. Don't get me wrong, but if the creator of the character comes out and says its 299 why is that not taken as gospel since he created the character and in his view it is.

Much like Hulk 180/181, Venom's first appearance is 299, but it's a teaser; 300 is first full appearance.

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D2

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On 4/20/2023 at 10:26 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Much like Hulk 180/181, Venom's first appearance is 299, but it's a teaser; 300 is first full appearance.

I completely agree.

Having read it, 299 is absolutely a cameo only. Sorry Todd. 

Creators are also known for just stirring the pot to antagonize the market. Todd is notorious for this. Precisely why he talks about his new movie every year, even though they only just started writing it… again.

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Lazyboy

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On 4/19/2023 at 6:22 PM, captainzombie said:

It is like ASM #299 and #300, where Todd McFarlane says that 299 is Venom's first appearance while the market says its 300. Don't get me wrong, but if the creator of the character comes out and says its 299 why is that not taken as gospel since he created the character and in his view it is.

Well, Michelinie created the character, but Todd contributed to Venom's look.

On 4/19/2023 at 9:44 PM, PeterPark said:

It's almost like he knew that when he drew Venom into the comic, Venom would be in the comic...

Then you would think Todd would know that Venom was in ASM 298.

On 4/20/2023 at 9:26 AM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Much like Hulk 180/181, Venom's first appearance is 299, but it's a teaser; 300 is first full appearance.

Venom's still in 298, without even getting into the Web appearances.

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GeeksAreMyPeeps

GeeksAreMyPeeps

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On 4/20/2023 at 4:44 PM, Lazyboy said:

Well, Michelinie created the character, but Todd contributed to Venom's look.

Then you would think Todd would know that Venom was in ASM 298.

Venom's still in 298, without even getting into the Web appearances.

Since Venom properly is Eddie and the symbiote bonded, arguably 298 is just a cameo of Eddie, not Venom. Mostly the last page is Eddie talking, and only at the very end do we see the symbiote slide over him, but we can't say for sure if they're fully bonded. Still a must-have for a Venom collector, I think, but questionable whether you can consider it a first for Venom.

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Lazyboy

Lazyboy

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On 4/20/2023 at 6:59 PM, GeeksAreMyPeeps said:

Since Venom properly is Eddie and the symbiote bonded, arguably 298 is just a cameo of Eddie, not Venom. Mostly the last page is Eddie talking, and only at the very end do we see the symbiote slide over him, but we can't say for sure if they're fully bonded. Still a must-have for a Venom collector, I think, but questionable whether you can consider it a first for Venom.

Of course we can. Eddie never appeared before becoming Venom.

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