Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[darkstar]

On 10/13/2023 at 7:24 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

Everything. It's obviously a market you have no experience with or you wouldn't be asking that question. 

If you remove a book from a slab keeping the label with the book does nothing to increase the price at which the now raw book would sell. The book is no longer graded and encapsulated ergo if you are buying a raw book at the market price it commands when graded, you overpaid for the book.

For some reason you are fixated on whether the dealer is reputable or not, which is meaningless to the discussion at hand. 

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:32 PM, darkstar said:

If you remove a book from a slab keeping the label with the book does nothing to increase the price at which the now raw book would sell. The book is no longer graded and encapsulated ergo if you are buying a raw book at the market price it commands when graded, you overpaid for the book.

For some reason you are fixated on whether the dealer is reputable or not, which is meaningless to the discussion at hand. 

Someone mentioned switching books and including the label. It's pretty sad that the communities trust is so low we all automatically go to the "what would a scammer do" side of things. What I'm saying is a reputable dealer that's been in the business for years is very unlikely to do something like that with their reputation on the line.

Also, just because a book doesn't have a number in the upper corner doesn't mean it's still not the same book. If it's a book I'm looking for in my collection I'm paying close to graded prices. But I understand some people only worry about if they get a deal or not. If that's you in the scenario then the book probably isn't for you. 

Edited October 14, 2023 by LOC Collectibles

[Robot Man]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:42 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

Someone mentioned switching books and including the label. It's pretty sad that the communities trust is so low we all automatically go to the "what would a scammer do" side of things. What I'm saying is a reputable dealer that's been in the business for years is very unlikely to do something like that with their reputation on the line.

Also, just because a book doesn't have a number in the upper corner doesn't mean it's still not the same book. If it's a book I'm looking for in my collection I'm paying close to graded prices. But I understand some people only worry about if they get a deal or not. If that's you in the scenario then the book probably isn't for you. 

Sadly, we live in a society where money is concerned, some have the desire to throw out all forms of honesty and human decently. A smart collector has to educate himself and be vigilant when spending one’s money.

I crack out a lot of slabs and keep the label in the back of the backing board. I fully realize the possible conquences for it. The ones I don’t crack are very high grade, expensive books or ones I really only want for the cover anyway. Or if I have plans on selling soon.

And, frankly, I don’t really trust anyone I don’t know with my money…

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:01 AM, Robot Man said:

Sadly, we live in a society where money is concerned, some have the desire to throw out all forms of honesty and human decently. A smart collector has to educate himself and be vigilant when spending one’s money.

I crack out a lot of slabs and keep the label in the back of the backing board. I fully realize the possible conquences for it. The ones I don’t crack are very high grade, expensive books or ones I really only want for the cover anyway. Or if I have plans on selling soon.

And, frankly, I don’t really trust anyone I don’t know with my money…

Agreed. It's a tough hobby for a new collector. 

[Hamlet]

On 10/13/2023 at 9:32 PM, darkstar said:

If you remove a book from a slab keeping the label with the book does nothing to increase the price at which the now raw book would sell. The book is no longer graded and encapsulated ergo if you are buying a raw book at the market price it commands when graded, you overpaid for the book.

For some reason you are fixated on whether the dealer is reputable or not, which is meaningless to the discussion at hand. 

I wouldn’t say it does nothing to increase the price that the book will sell at.  There is a vast difference between trusting someone grading their own books judgement ( which is almost always flawed ), and trusting that they didn’t damage or switch books.  I trust the vast majority of people I buy from enough to believe they aren’t intentionally cheating me, but I am going to trust CGC’s opinion of a book’s grade a little more than most people selling their own books.

Most people ( including myself ) have a very difficult time objectively grading books that they are selling.  So I am probably willing to pay a little more for a cracked book with the label than I am for just a plain raw book.  I’m not going to pay full slabbed prices, obviously, but I’m going to trust the grade a little more.  

 

[VintageComics]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:08 AM, darkstar said:

On 10/12/2023 at 7:35 PM, Mike Murdock said:

How do folks here feel about de-slabbed books with the label included?  I really want to deslab a bunch of books and get rid of the slabs but wonder how much of a value drop that might lead to.  If you de-slab a mid-grade book like a 6.5 FF50 and keep the label, does it really hurt resale value?

Almost nobody is paying the graded market price for a raw book. A de-slabbed book could have incurred additional damage, or it could've been subjected to attempts at restoration or pressing, etc.

Or it could go up in grade.

Let's call a spade a spade. 

The reality is that people who want the slab value will pay for the slab while people who want the book will pay for the book, 

Some people only buy slabs. Some people never buy slabs. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. 

So just do whatever you want to do. The price difference for a relatively inexpensive mid grade book will be negligible in or out of a slab and you may actually get more for it if you sell to someone who is a reader...OR if your book has excellent eye appeal for the grade. 

Too many factors for only one answer so just do whatever you feel most comfortable with. 

Now if you wanted to crack out a very expensive book, you may want to think about it...but even then, many of us crack out our personal books to enjoy them. 

The only ones I didn't crack out where the ones that would cost me a lot to reslab. 

 

[VintageComics]

On 10/13/2023 at 10:32 PM, darkstar said:

On 10/13/2023 at 8:24 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

Everything. It's obviously a market you have no experience with or you wouldn't be asking that question. 

If you remove a book from a slab keeping the label with the book does nothing to increase the price at which the now raw book would sell. The book is no longer graded and encapsulated ergo if you are buying a raw book at the market price it commands when graded, you overpaid for the book.

For some reason you are fixated on whether the dealer is reputable or not, which is meaningless to the discussion at hand. 

You're only looking at it from one angle.

Some dealers (and even auction houses) tend to fetch very strong money for their raw grading because they've carved out reputations as being tight graders...and possibly even tighter than CGC. 

THOSE dealers don't need to slab books to sell them. The people buying from them know that they can trust them blindly most of the time.

Then, there are people like me who KNOW how to grade so whether a book is in a CGC holder or raw is irrelvant to me. I grade the book myself regardless of what CGC or the selling dealer sells. 

Finally, there are people who avoid slabbed books and they are a significant portion of the market. Those people will gladly buy a book like this. 

There are probably other perspectives. 

It's really hard to make a sweeping statement when there are so many variables. 

[MAR1979]

^ what is your SWAG guess of the percentage of cracked out books that sustain some damage in the process?  1-5%, 6-8% higher?  No matter how careful or how many the person potential for risk is plausible. Even .5% of 1000 is 5 books damaged.

 

Edited October 14, 2023 by MAR1979

[VintageComics]

On 10/14/2023 at 6:46 PM, MAR1979 said:

^ what is your SWAG guess of the percentage of cracked out books that sustain some damage in the process?  1-5%, 6-8% higher?  No matter how careful or how many the person potential for risk is plausible. Even .5% of 1000 is 5 books damaged.

 

About the same as books that change grade on straight resubmission. Irrelevant for the most part. 

Lower grade books can sustain LOTS of damage before going down in grade. 

Mid grade books can also sustain quite a bit of damage before changing grade.

You really only have to significantly worry about this for higher grade books, say, above 7.0 or VF range and even then, if a book is UNDER graded, it may not go down in grade on resub. 

Again, too many factors to worry a whole lot.

And if you feel uncomfortable buying ungraded books then you probably shouldn't but not everyone does. 

[MAR1979]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:31 PM, VintageComics said:

About the same as books that change grade on straight resubmission. Irrelevant for the most part. 

Lower grade books can sustain LOTS of damage before going down in grade. 

Mid grade books can also sustain quite a bit of damage before changing grade.

You really only have to significantly worry about this for higher grade books, say, above 7.0 or VF range and even then, if a book is UNDER graded, it may not go down in grade on resub. 

Again, too many factors to worry a whole lot.

And if you feel uncomfortable buying ungraded books then you probably shouldn't but not everyone does. 

I never alluded to the bold-ed part. Merely trying to determine risk vs rewards of cracking out.

Agreed on Low and Mid Grade.

Edited October 15, 2023 by MAR1979

[VintageComics]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:52 PM, MAR1979 said:

I never alluded to the bold-ed part. Merely trying to determine risk vs rewards of cracking out.

Agreed on Low and Mid Grade.

That was more for people reading, but agree. 

[southern cross]

On 10/14/2023 at 3:46 PM, MAR1979 said:

^ what is your SWAG guess of the percentage of cracked out books that sustain some damage in the process?  1-5%, 6-8% higher?  No matter how careful or how many the person potential for risk is plausible. Even .5% of 1000 is 5 books damaged.

 

Not sure but many years ago I bought a TTA 96 in 9.6 Boston pedigree.

At the time there were only 6, 9.6 copies on the census for CGC, one other was the White mountain pedigree copy.

A few years later I saw the White mountain pedigree copy CGC a 9.4, so obviously the book had been cracked out and resub and it came back lower.

Not sure if the book was damaged in a crack slab or the book had been cracked out, read then slabbed again for resale?

Edited October 15, 2023 by southern cross

[Telegan]

On 10/13/2023 at 11:42 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

Someone mentioned switching books and including the label. It's pretty sad that the communities trust is so low we all automatically go to the "what would a scammer do" side of things. What I'm saying is a reputable dealer that's been in the business for years is very unlikely to do something like that with their reputation on the line.

Also, just because a book doesn't have a number in the upper corner doesn't mean it's still not the same book. If it's a book I'm looking for in my collection I'm paying close to graded prices. But I understand some people only worry about if they get a deal or not. If that's you in the scenario then the book probably isn't for you. 

It's not so much that switching is a huge issue in that it's prevalent or anything.  It's that, in most cases, raw books are being sold based upon front cover and, if you're lucky, back cover snapshots, and that's pretty much it.  So you're buying a raw book based upon not knowing squat about what's going on inside.  Even on eBay where sometimes you'll get a centerfold pic, you are still left wondering if other pages are torn, cut out, missing, written all over, etc.

It also has less to do with getting a deal as much as not getting ripped off.  If I buy a graded comic book for $200 and it goes down in value to $50, that's my fault, and I can accept that.  If I buy a comic book for $200 only to find missing pages or other damage I couldn't see... who do I blame?  If you say me, that's fine.  If you say the seller, that's fine.  I choose not to be a victim in either case by not risking it.  It has nothing to do with getting a deal, but has everything to do with risk aversion.  There are comics people have gotten on reputable sites like Heritage that they question whether the grade was accurate (in both directions).  Other times from reputable dealers that missed restoration.  Was it intentional?  Probably not.  Still doesn't matter if it happens, and again, it's just risk aversion.

[Nick Furious]

On 10/12/2023 at 6:35 PM, Mike Murdock said:

How do folks here feel about de-slabbed books with the label included?  I really want to deslab a bunch of books and get rid of the slabs but wonder how much of a value drop that might lead to.  If you de-slab a mid-grade book like a 6.5 FF50 and keep the label, does it really hurt resale value?

There are two components to value...they are Price and Liquidity. Liquidity being the speed at which something will sell and the number of venues it can reasonably be sold on for something close to full price.  Anecdotes aside, value will go in this order:  Slabbed, de-slabbed with label, and raw with no label.  Imagine a test of the same 100 books being sold in the three different formats.  Any dealer, reputable or not, will get greatest value (speed and price) from the slabbed format.   

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:51 PM, Telegan said:

It's not so much that switching is a huge issue in that it's prevalent or anything.  It's that, in most cases, raw books are being sold based upon front cover and, if you're lucky, back cover snapshots, and that's pretty much it.  So you're buying a raw book based upon not knowing squat about what's going on inside.  Even on eBay where sometimes you'll get a centerfold pic, you are still left wondering if other pages are torn, cut out, missing, written all over, etc.

It also has less to do with getting a deal as much as not getting ripped off.  If I buy a graded comic book for $200 and it goes down in value to $50, that's my fault, and I can accept that.  If I buy a comic book for $200 only to find missing pages or other damage I couldn't see... who do I blame?  If you say me, that's fine.  If you say the seller, that's fine.  I choose not to be a victim in either case by not risking it.  It has nothing to do with getting a deal, but has everything to do with risk aversion.  There are comics people have gotten on reputable sites like Heritage that they question whether the grade was accurate (in both directions).  Other times from reputable dealers that missed restoration.  Was it intentional?  Probably not.  Still doesn't matter if it happens, and again, it's just risk aversion.

If you get a still sealed universal CGC slab and decide to crack it to find either restoration, book is incomplete, or any other major flaw, who's to blame at that point? 

[southern cross]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:00 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

If you get a still sealed universal CGC slab and decide to crack it to find either restoration, book is incomplete, or any other major flaw, who's to blame at that point? 

No one.

The book is graded and they give their opinion of the book with a numerical assigned grade and page quality.

Once cracked out of the slab it's no longer a graded book by the third party grading company.

It's grade now is the opinion of whoever is looking at it.

So for the third party grading company is all about trust, professionalism and acceptance with other parties willing to buy it.

Probably why the bulk of the books being graded in the United States are sent into only two companies though there are more operating.

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:52 PM, southern cross said:

No one.

The book is graded and they give their opinion of the book with a numerical assigned grade and page quality.

Once cracked out of the slab it's no longer a graded book by the third party grading company.

It's grade now is the opinion of whoever is looking at it.

So for the third party grading company is all about trust, professionalism and acceptance with other parties willing to buy it.

Probably why the bulk of the books being graded in the United States are sent into only two companies though there are more operating.

I'm talking about a major flaw with the book that was missed during the grading process. Not the grade that was assigned the book. 

[southern cross]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:12 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

I'm talking about a major flaw with the book that was missed during the grading process. Not the grade that was assigned the book. 

Once the book is out of the slab any major flaws missed like missing pages would be hard to prove against a grading company.

Whose to say that it's the same book.

 

[Telegan]

On 10/14/2023 at 11:00 PM, LOC Collectibles said:

If you get a still sealed universal CGC slab and decide to crack it to find either restoration, book is incomplete, or any other major flaw, who's to blame at that point? 

I would never crack a slab.  A 3rd party has given a grade for that comic (whether someone agrees with it or not), and that's the basis I make my valuation of whether I want to buy that slab or not.  I have no idea at that point what's going on inside the comic, but since, in most cases, I only collect for the cover art or some other type of nostalgia, it doesn't matter to me once it's in the slab.  I don't CPR a book looking to profit, I don't flip comics, etc.  The only thing I care about is whether I got that book for a decent value for the condition it's in.  Most people will say "CGC graded it a 3.5, so I'll sell it/buy it as a 3.5".  For me there really is no risk involved, for someone who wants to peruse the inside or CPR the book in hopes of profit, they've assumed a risk that is entirely up to them and different from me.

Let's say some day I decide to actually sell a comic - I have a 5.0 raw and a 5.0 CGC.  When I attempt to sell the raw, you or anyone else could debate with me that it's a 5.0, and you very well may have a case.  That unopened CGC remains a 5.0 whether you agree with it or not.  You can say it's a 4.0, but there are several others that will disagree or won't care, and this is what will set the value.  In this scenario you also can't tell me something's wrong on the inside of the comic.  This is part of what the majority of people buying and selling comics have accepted - we will accept the grade given from that 3rd party.  This is part of an appraisal process.  I don't have the same sense of security buying a raw from joenosekomix28578 on eBay, for example.

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:38 AM, Telegan said:

I would never crack a slab.  A 3rd party has given a grade for that comic (whether someone agrees with it or not), and that's the basis I make my valuation of whether I want to buy that slab or not.  I have no idea at that point what's going on inside the comic, but since, in most cases, I only collect for the cover art or some other type of nostalgia, it doesn't matter to me once it's in the slab.  I don't CPR a book looking to profit, I don't flip comics, etc.  The only thing I care about is whether I got that book for a decent value for the condition it's in.  Most people will say "CGC graded it a 3.5, so I'll sell it/buy it as a 3.5".  For me there really is no risk involved, for someone who wants to peruse the inside or CPR the book in hopes of profit, they've assumed a risk that is entirely up to them and different from me.

Let's say some day I decide to actually sell a comic - I have a 5.0 raw and a 5.0 CGC.  When I attempt to sell the raw, you or anyone else could debate with me that it's a 5.0, and you very well may have a case.  That unopened CGC remains a 5.0 whether you agree with it or not.  You can say it's a 4.0, but there are several others that will disagree or won't care, and this is what will set the value.  In this scenario you also can't tell me something's wrong on the inside of the comic.  This is part of what the majority of people buying and selling comics have accepted - we will accept the grade given from that 3rd party.  This is part of an appraisal process.  I don't have the same sense of security buying a raw from joenosekomix28578 on eBay, for example.

As mentioned earlier in this thread it comes down to personal preference. There are many dealers I would trust on grading and details about a higher end book more than I would CGC. I feel with the internet age most newer collector's have dealt very little with individuals in person and it becomes a disconnect between the buyer and seller. CGC has helped bridge that gap for your "average Joe" sellers but there are dealers throughout the country that still get graded prices or better for raw books because of their reputation.