Are prices still climbing or have they eased up a bit??? 43 43

[Pantodude]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:00 PM, Nick Furious said:

Anecdotes aside, value will go in this order:  Slabbed, de-slabbed with label but with book still sealed in the CGC inner well, de-slabbed with label, and raw with no label. 

Fixed that for you.  

[VintageComics]

On 10/14/2023 at 9:25 PM, southern cross said:

Not sure but many years ago I bought a TTA 96 in 9.6 Boston pedigree.

At the time there were only 6, 9.6 copies on the census for CGC, one other was the White mountain pedigree copy.

A few years later I saw the White mountain pedigree copy CGC a 9.4, so obviously the book had been cracked out and resub and it came back lower.

Not sure if the book was damaged in a crack slab or the book had been cracked out, read then slabbed again for resale?

I've probably slabbed more books than the majority of people here. 

People assume when something isn't talked about it doesn't exist. Like the Kudos forum, all of those members look stellar when you're not allowed to be honest and say anything negative.

People always talk about the wins but they never talk about the losses. There are LOTS of losses. I've had LOTS of losses.

I just keep them to myself but they are always there.

 

 

[VintageComics]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:00 PM, Nick Furious said:

On 10/12/2023 at 7:35 PM, Mike Murdock said:

How do folks here feel about de-slabbed books with the label included?  I really want to deslab a bunch of books and get rid of the slabs but wonder how much of a value drop that might lead to.  If you de-slab a mid-grade book like a 6.5 FF50 and keep the label, does it really hurt resale value?

There are two components to value...they are Price and Liquidity. Liquidity being the speed at which something will sell and the number of venues it can reasonably be sold on for something close to full price.  Anecdotes aside, value will go in this order:  Slabbed, de-slabbed with label, and raw with no label.  Imagine a test of the same 100 books being sold in the three different formats.  Any dealer, reputable or not, will get greatest value (speed and price) from the slabbed format. 

Unless the book is undergraded and sitting in the wrong holder. 

Then, people will pay MORE for it than a similar slabbed copy. 

So again, there is no ONE RULE for everyone because there are so many variables. 

[VintageComics]

On 10/15/2023 at 12:00 AM, LOC Collectibles said:

If you get a still sealed universal CGC slab and decide to crack it to find either restoration, book is incomplete, or any other major flaw, who's to blame at that point? 

If YOU crack the book, you are to blame. 

If CGC cracks the book, they are to blame. 

[Telegan]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:45 AM, LOC Collectibles said:

As mentioned earlier in this thread it comes down to personal preference. There are many dealers I would trust on grading and details about a higher end book more than I would CGC. I feel with the internet age most newer collector's have dealt very little with individuals in person and it becomes a disconnect between the buyer and seller. CGC has helped bridge that gap for your "average Joe" sellers but there are dealers throughout the country that still get graded prices or better for raw books because of their reputation.  

I never said it wasn't personal preference, which is why I was referring to myself in the response.  There are people who read comics, invest in comics, flip comics, collect for interior art, collect for cover art, collect for nostalgia, etc.  All of them have their reasons for doing what they do, and because of that, they value decisions and variables associated with them differently.  Which is cool.  I was just speaking for myself.  I don't have anything against raw books.  Heck, I just spent the most I ever spent on a raw book recently at an MCS auction.  No, it wasn't a ton of money, but dang it, it was hard bidding on that.  Baby steps.  lol.

For me, it just boils down to this : I don't flip comics, and I've never even sold a comic, but I also don't want to lose my shirt when it comes time to sell even though it's not like my comics are my retirement (I just hate losing money - I'm weird), and I also don't want to possibly be ripped-off.  When I get a CGC 5.0, I pretty much know I can sell it for a CGC 5.0 whatever the value for a 5.0 is, when the time comes.  When I get a 5.0 raw, there's no guarantee I can sell it for a 5.0 value.  As a matter of fact, most of the time, it probably would sell less than a CGC 5.0.  Even if I tell them, "but the great Bob's Comic City sold it to me as a 5.0"!  And no dealer is going to give me what it's really worth unless it somehow shot up in demand and is rare.

[Mike Murdock]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:31 PM, Telegan said:

I never said it wasn't personal preference, which is why I was referring to myself in the response.  There are people who read comics, invest in comics, flip comics, collect for interior art, collect for cover art, collect for nostalgia, etc.  All of them have their reasons for doing what they do, and because of that, they value decisions and variables associated with them differently.  Which is cool.  I was just speaking for myself.  I don't have anything against raw books.  Heck, I just spent the most I ever spent on a raw book recently at an MCS auction.  No, it wasn't a ton of money, but dang it, it was hard bidding on that.  Baby steps.  lol.

For me, it just boils down to this : I don't flip comics, and I've never even sold a comic, but I also don't want to lose my shirt when it comes time to sell even though it's not like my comics are my retirement (I just hate losing money - I'm weird), and I also don't want to possibly be ripped-off.  When I get a CGC 5.0, I pretty much know I can sell it for a CGC 5.0 whatever the value for a 5.0 is, when the time comes.  When I get a 5.0 raw, there's no guarantee I can sell it for a 5.0 value.  As a matter of fact, most of the time, it probably would sell less than a CGC 5.0.  Even if I tell them, "but the great Bob's Comic City sold it to me as a 5.0"!  And no dealer is going to give me what it's really worth unless it somehow shot up in demand and is rare.

I just started selling a few books the last few weeks and am finding it much easier to sell raws than stabbed books. Nobody seems to want to pay full price for a slabbed book.  In fact, one guy only would offer up to 70% of the last three sales for the same book on eBay.  Needless to say, I passed but am worried about selling stabbed books anywhere near what they are listed at on GPA or even eBay.  People seem to be making similar offers for raw and slabbed.  Not seeing a premium for slabbed and I paid more for the slabbeb books for sure.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Mike Murdock

[VintageComics]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:43 PM, Mike Murdock said:

I just started selling a few books the last few weeks and am finding it much easier to sell raws than stabbed books. Nobody seems to want to pay full price for a slabbed book.  In fact, one guy only would offer up to 70% of the last three sales for the same book on eBay.  Needless to say, I passed but am worried about selling stabbed books anywhere near what they are listed at on GPA or even eBay.  People seem to be making similar offers for raw and slabbed.  Not seeing a premium for slabbed and I paid more for the slabbeb books for sure.

It's easy to sell in an up market or a bull market.

Selling is an entirely different animal in a down market or a bear market. 

[Telegan]

On 10/15/2023 at 5:43 PM, Mike Murdock said:

I just started selling a few books the last few weeks and am finding it much easier to sell raws than stabbed books. Nobody seems to want to pay full price for a slabbed book.  In fact, one guy only would offer up to 70% of the last three sales for the same book on eBay.  Needless to say, I passed but am worried about selling stabbed books anywhere near what they are listed at on GPA or even ebay.  People are offering the same for raw and slabbed.

I've been hearing lately that raws are the way to go because nobody wants to pay up for slabs, but then, it also depends on what and where you're looking for, too.  For example, in auctions for GA/PCH comics, I still see some really strong prices for both raw and slabbed, but I don't usually see raws going for more than slabbed unless it's some kind of desperation because it's a comic you just don't see come up for sale often.  The raw comic I mentioned that I recently bought was a fairly rare comic (less than 15 universal copies on the census) that I always liked but rarely see up for sale.  I had to bid up on it (or at least I think so) because I didn't know when I'd see it again.

On the other side of the coin, I see SA and BA comics selling for crazy low prices here and there for slabs.  Just when I think the fall has stopped, they keep going lower.  I'm sure we're somewhere near a bottom (*shrug), but I'm going to let those go for a while before I jump back in.  I still got some really good deals a few months ago on some of them, but it's on a case-by-case basis with those.

If you're forced to sell in this market, and you're not dealing in rare/high-demand comics, it's somewhat of a gamble.  I've seen comics go for $X and immediately go for $0.6X and then again for $X.  It's nutty and depends on who happens to be eyeing what you're selling, I guess.  I don't really sell, but this is what I've seen based upon watching some auctions on a monthly basis.  Hopefully things settle down in the next year, but hey ... interest/bond rates, inflation, yada yada.

[Mike Murdock]

On 10/15/2023 at 3:54 PM, Telegan said:

I've been hearing lately that raws are the way to go because nobody wants to pay up for slabs, but then, it also depends on what and where you're looking for, too.  For example, in auctions for GA/PCH comics, I still see some really strong prices for both raw and slabbed, but I don't usually see raws going for more than slabbed unless it's some kind of desperation because it's a comic you just don't see come up for sale often.  The raw comic I mentioned that I recently bought was a fairly rare comic (less than 15 universal copies on the census) that I always liked but rarely see up for sale.  I had to bid up on it (or at least I think so) because I didn't know when I'd see it again.

On the other side of the coin, I see SA and BA comics selling for crazy low prices here and there for slabs.  Just when I think the fall has stopped, they keep going lower.  I'm sure we're somewhere near a bottom (*shrug), but I'm going to let those go for a while before I jump back in.  I still got some really good deals a few months ago on some of them, but it's on a case-by-case basis with those.

If you're forced to sell in this market, and you're not dealing in rare/high-demand comics, it's somewhat of a gamble.  I've seen comics go for $X and immediately go for $0.6X and then again for $X.  It's nutty and depends on who happens to be eyeing what you're selling, I guess.  I don't really sell, but this is what I've seen based upon watching some auctions on a monthly basis.  Hopefully things settle down in the next year, but hey ... interest/bond rates, inflation, yada yada.

I've been selling duplicate silver and bronze from my collection.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Mike Murdock

[Gator Guru]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:54 PM, Telegan said:

I've been hearing lately that raws are the way to go because nobody wants to pay up for slabs, but then, it also depends on what and where you're looking for, too.  For example, in auctions for GA/PCH comics, I still see some really strong prices for both raw and slabbed, but I don't usually see raws going for more than slabbed unless it's some kind of desperation because it's a comic you just don't see come up for sale often.  The raw comic I mentioned that I recently bought was a fairly rare comic (less than 15 universal copies on the census) that I always liked but rarely see up for sale.  I had to bid up on it (or at least I think so) because I didn't know when I'd see it again.

On the other side of the coin, I see SA and BA comics selling for crazy low prices here and there for slabs.  Just when I think the fall has stopped, they keep going lower.  I'm sure we're somewhere near a bottom (*shrug), but I'm going to let those go for a while before I jump back in.  I still got some really good deals a few months ago on some of them, but it's on a case-by-case basis with those.

If you're forced to sell in this market, and you're not dealing in rare/high-demand comics, it's somewhat of a gamble.  I've seen comics go for $X and immediately go for $0.6X and then again for $X.  It's nutty and depends on who happens to be eyeing what you're selling, I guess.  I don't really sell, but this is what I've seen based upon watching some auctions on a monthly basis.  Hopefully things settle down in the next year, but hey ... interest/bond rates, inflation, yada yada.

The interest is there trust me. I see just as many Ebay watchers as I have ever seen but its people not paying, paying late or things selling for lower and lower prices. You really need to find someone that is willing to parr with their money or have something really good that people want badly.

[Telegan]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:00 PM, Gator Guru said:

The interest is there trust me. I see just as many Ebay watchers as I have ever seen but its people not paying, paying late or things selling for lower and lower prices. You really need to find someone that is willing to parr with their money or have something really good that people want badly.

If you mean when I said "interest", I meant "interest rates".  There is something to be said for collectible values and hype somewhat mirroring the economy.  I agree there's interest out there.  For the most part, I've seen a lot of interest shift out of SA and BA into GA comics (generally speaking) as the former 2 crater back to "normal".  I've also seen weird pops in popularity with BA Horror, for example.  I'm hoping GA doesn't crater eventually, too.  With eBay stuff, everything I look at is unreasonably priced in that people are asking for "last year's" prices.  There are some realistic prices here and there, though.  I usually just stick to auctions, for the most part, nowadays, but will peek into eBay every-so-often.

[Mike Murdock]

On 10/15/2023 at 10:52 PM, Telegan said:

If you mean when I said "interest", I meant "interest rates".  There is something to be said for collectible values and hype somewhat mirroring the economy.  I agree there's interest out there.  For the most part, I've seen a lot of interest shift out of SA and BA into GA comics (generally speaking) as the former 2 crater back to "normal".  I've also seen weird pops in popularity with BA Horror, for example.  I'm hoping GA doesn't crater eventually, too.  With eBay stuff, everything I look at is unreasonably priced in that people are asking for "last year's" prices.  There are some realistic prices here and there, though.  I usually just stick to auctions, for the most part, nowadays, but will peek into eBay every-so-often.

My wife says I have been using 1990s pricing on some of my sales and she's not too far off.  The good news is that almost all of my duplicates are gone.  

Edited October 16, 2023 by Mike Murdock

[MyNameIsLegion]

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/politics/covid-19-pandemic-benefits-ending-dg/index.html

There are macroeconomic forces that are playing out in real time even as we speak that are going to put further downward pressure on comic prices. Many of them are all hitting all at once. This past weekend we did a  one day show that we do every year at this time and did 20-25% of the sales we normally do at this show selling SA, BA, CA, some modern cheaper books and expensive books. Most everyone had a a bad show, because no one was there. 

The article above highlights:

• Nearly 30% of Americans with some college education are resuming monthly federal student debt payments this month after a three-year plus hiatus
• One in three children enrolled in child care programs supported by American Rescue Plan Act, or ARPA, grants are projected to lose their spots since the federal funding expired at the end of September.
  • As a result, parents could be forced to quit their jobs or cut back hours and are expected to lose billions in earnings in total.
• Americans continued to take on different kinds of debt. Credit card debt grew from $820 billion at the start of the pandemic to over $1 trillion three years later, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
• Mortgage debt increased from $9.8 trillion to $12 trillion. Student loan debt remained steady at the $1.5 trillion marker.

While the Medicaid stat may not seem relevant to the comic biz, those kicked off will probably reply on family first, which will take time and resources away from earners.  All these things combined along with interest rates mean less money to spend on discretionary items like funny books. 

It's gonna be a cold winter. 

[Gator Guru]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/politics/covid-19-pandemic-benefits-ending-dg/index.html

There are macroeconomic forces that are playing out in real time even as we speak that are going to put further downward pressure on comic prices. Many of them are all hitting all at once. This past weekend we did a  one day show that we do every year at this time and did 20-25% of the sales we normally do at this show selling SA, BA, CA, some modern cheaper books and expensive books. Most everyone had a a bad show, because no one was there. 

The article above highlights:

• Nearly 30% of Americans with some college education are resuming monthly federal student debt payments this month after a three-year plus hiatus
• One in three children enrolled in child care programs supported by American Rescue Plan Act, or ARPA, grants are projected to lose their spots since the federal funding expired at the end of September.
  • As a result, parents could be forced to quit their jobs or cut back hours and are expected to lose billions in earnings in total.
• Americans continued to take on different kinds of debt. Credit card debt grew from $820 billion at the start of the pandemic to over $1 trillion three years later, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
• Mortgage debt increased from $9.8 trillion to $12 trillion. Student loan debt remained steady at the $1.5 trillion marker.

While the Medicaid stat may not seem relevant to the comic biz, those kicked off will probably reply on family first, which will take time and resources away from earners.  All these things combined along with interest rates mean less money to spend on discretionary items like funny books. 

It's gonna be a cold winter. 

Wow, those are staggering numbers. Thanks for posting this as it definitely helps put things in perspective. As a nation we have been kicking the can down the road for far too long it seems.

[VintageComics]

On 10/16/2023 at 7:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/politics/covid-19-pandemic-benefits-ending-dg/index.html

There are macroeconomic forces that are playing out in real time even as we speak that are going to put further downward pressure on comic prices. Many of them are all hitting all at once. This past weekend we did a  one day show that we do every year at this time and did 20-25% of the sales we normally do at this show selling SA, BA, CA, some modern cheaper books and expensive books. Most everyone had a a bad show, because no one was there. 

The article above highlights:

• Nearly 30% of Americans with some college education are resuming monthly federal student debt payments this month after a three-year plus hiatus
• One in three children enrolled in child care programs supported by American Rescue Plan Act, or ARPA, grants are projected to lose their spots since the federal funding expired at the end of September.
  • As a result, parents could be forced to quit their jobs or cut back hours and are expected to lose billions in earnings in total.
• Americans continued to take on different kinds of debt. Credit card debt grew from $820 billion at the start of the pandemic to over $1 trillion three years later, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
• Mortgage debt increased from $9.8 trillion to $12 trillion. Student loan debt remained steady at the $1.5 trillion marker.

While the Medicaid stat may not seem relevant to the comic biz, those kicked off will probably reply on family first, which will take time and resources away from earners.  All these things combined along with interest rates mean less money to spend on discretionary items like funny books. 

It's gonna be a cold winter. 

While I don't fully disagree about downward pressure, this analysis is one sided. 

We ALSO saw a great expansion of wealth over the same period as people got (unnecessary) free printed money, had bills covered for them and also cashed in record Crypto profits etc. 

For example, the US printed and handed out Trillions but we also had nearly $2Trillion in crypto profits cashed in 2 years ago. That was all spread over a segment of the population. 

So while some are hurting others are absolutely not. In every economy there are people making money while others are experiencing misfortune and MANY people came out much more wealthy in 2022.

Edited October 16, 2023 by VintageComics

[MyNameIsLegion]

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-wealth-income-concentration-resume-upward-climb-post-pandemic-era-2023-10-09/
 

the conditions during the pandemic and the easymoney are precisely why we are where we are today with SA and BA keys etc tanking. The entirety of the comic hobby are not the exclusive domain of the top 10% or even 30% where most of the money resides but the rest of Main Street disproportionately bears the brunt of inflation & debt. 

[alexgross.com]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:12 PM, VintageComics said:

While I don't fully disagree about downward pressure, this analysis is one sided. 

We ALSO saw a great expansion of wealth over the same period as people got (unnecessary) free printed money, had bills covered for them and also cashed in record Crypto profits etc. 

For example, the US printed and handed out Trillions but we also had nearly $2Trillion in crypto profits cashed in 2 years ago. That was all spread over a segment of the population. 

So while some are hurting others are absolutely not. In every economy there are people making money while others are experiencing misfortune and MANY people came out much more wealthy in 2022.

it's just anecdotal, but every single person i know is doing less well now than a year or two ago. everyone is worried, and no one is spending on luxury items. maybe you hang out with more billionaires than i do, but amongst the upper middle class and middle class people that i know, things are not good. everyone i know who has some money and wants to buy a house is finding it absolutely impossible now with interest rates. home sales have plummeted. and what's worse is that there is no reason for economic optimism on the horizon. 

[captainzombie]

On 10/16/2023 at 6:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/15/politics/covid-19-pandemic-benefits-ending-dg/index.html

There are macroeconomic forces that are playing out in real time even as we speak that are going to put further downward pressure on comic prices. Many of them are all hitting all at once. This past weekend we did a  one day show that we do every year at this time and did 20-25% of the sales we normally do at this show selling SA, BA, CA, some modern cheaper books and expensive books. Most everyone had a a bad show, because no one was there. 

The article above highlights:

• Nearly 30% of Americans with some college education are resuming monthly federal student debt payments this month after a three-year plus hiatus
• One in three children enrolled in child care programs supported by American Rescue Plan Act, or ARPA, grants are projected to lose their spots since the federal funding expired at the end of September.
  • As a result, parents could be forced to quit their jobs or cut back hours and are expected to lose billions in earnings in total.
• Americans continued to take on different kinds of debt. Credit card debt grew from $820 billion at the start of the pandemic to over $1 trillion three years later, according to data from the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.
• Mortgage debt increased from $9.8 trillion to $12 trillion. Student loan debt remained steady at the $1.5 trillion marker.

While the Medicaid stat may not seem relevant to the comic biz, those kicked off will probably reply on family first, which will take time and resources away from earners.  All these things combined along with interest rates mean less money to spend on discretionary items like funny books. 

It's gonna be a cold winter. 

Thank you for sharing this with us. I know that many of us had some of these factors in mind from the article, but it helps place more things into perspective. I fear to see what things will be like a year from now especially with it also being an election year. It is one reason to why I have been trying to get out of some of the not so great books that I have acquired the last two years because some of these probably have no chance in going back up again.

[VintageComics]

On 10/16/2023 at 9:09 PM, alexgross.com said:

it's just anecdotal, but every single person i know is doing less well now than a year or two ago. everyone is worried, and no one is spending on luxury items. maybe you hang out with more billionaires than i do, but amongst the upper middle class and middle class people that i know, things are not good. everyone i know who has some money and wants to buy a house is finding it absolutely impossible now with interest rates. home sales have plummeted. and what's worse is that there is no reason for economic optimism on the horizon. 

I don't hang out with billionaires. Like ever. I was speaking in a general sense. 

I don't disagree that the middle class is hurting. I actually think it's by design, frankly. 

But in every economy when someone is losing money, someone else is making money. Ying / yang. There were trillions pumped into the economy. It had to go somewhere. 

 

I agree with @CAHokie that some chose to use their funds wisely and some chose not to.

So where did all that money go?

[LOC Collectibles]

On 10/16/2023 at 8:35 PM, VintageComics said:

I don't hang out with billionaires. Like ever. I was speaking in a general sense. 

I don't disagree that the middle class is hurting. I actually think it's by design, frankly. 

But in every economy when someone is losing money, someone else is making money. Ying / yang. There were trillions pumped into the economy. It had to go somewhere. 

 

I agree with @CAHokie that some chose to use their funds wisely and some chose not to.

So where did all that money go?

The 1%. What I've noticed over the past year especially is the people that have it REALLY have it and the gap between them and those that don't is getting bigger every day.

Edited October 17, 2023 by LOC Collectibles