I'd say it's fun starting these new threads calling out CGC's quality control, but it really isn't. CGC claims no liability on book they improperly encased to begin with. 0

[KCOComics]

10 hours ago, I_Am_Not_A_Cat said:

I have plenty of inner well scuffs. But also scratches on outer hard shell. They are a smooth grey line scuff. 14 days return won't help me as I didn't submit them. Not that I would be thrilled to ship off my books. Wait weeks for them to open them. Wait half a year to have them graded. Hope they don't get damaged. Then have to send them back for a "free recase" Does this also include the shipping too and back? Insurance? 

+1

The waiting is the hardest part! 

I generally only send books to CGC I care about. Valuable,  rare or ones in hanging into for decades to come. After waiting months and months for pressing and grading, the idea of getting them back,  taking a pretty picture,  then sending them off for months and months again is really unappealing. So much so, I'll live with the scuffs. 

 

Now,  I empathize with the OP.  We all hold CGC to a high standard and we should.  But I imagine their capacity constrains prohibit then from reholdering old slabs that have changed hands.   

 

[Kevin76]

Of course CGC QC can be better

However collectors expect perfection each and every time, ask yourself "When I go to work and do my job, am I absolutely perfect at what I do every time day after day?  of course not.  Is your spouse perfect?  Are your kids perfect?  No, But you accept their flaws and carry on.   

 

[Bird]

8 hours ago, Kevin76 said:

Of course CGC QC can be better

However collectors expect perfection each and every time, ask yourself "When I go to work and do my job, am I absolutely perfect at what I do every time day after day?  of course not.  Is your spouse perfect?  Are your kids perfect?  No, But you accept their flaws and carry on.   

 

Do you go to any business that gives you flawed product repeatedly? Even if they are 95% correct? Fast food? Barber/hairdresser? Lawyer? Banker? Pilot? Mechanic? You can and should be able to hit reasonable benchmarks 100% of the time. Yes, 100% of the time.

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

3 minutes ago, Bird said:

Do you go to any business that gives you flawed product repeatedly? Even if they are 95% correct? Fast food? Barber/hairdresser? Lawyer? Banker? Pilot? Mechanic? You can and should be able to hit reasonable benchmarks 100% of the time. Yes, 100% of the time.

Quality Control in any business never reaches 100%.

[Bird]

8 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

Quality Control in any business never reaches 100%.

right, but volume is responsible. That is the company side. As a customer, how many times do you go back if YOU get the bad QC? I would state that you do not go back to any business that gives you what you paid for 98% of the time, that the 2% mistakes drive you away. CGC is an outlier in how people treat the businesses they frequent.

From a customer's view 100% is reasonable to expect. Now is the sandwich messed up or is just the salt packet missing? Of course if the salt packet is missing I let it slide. But if the sandwich is messed up you get 2 strikes, maybe a third if it is reallt really good.

Again, pick a business you frequent and ask yourself if you would go there if they messed up even twice.

[theCapraAegagrus]

6 minutes ago, Bird said:

right, but volume is responsible. That is the company side. As a customer, how many times do you go back if YOU get the bad QC? I would state that you do not go back to any business that gives you what you paid for 98% of the time, that the 2% mistakes drive you away. CGC is an outlier in how people treat the businesses they frequent.

From a customer's view 100% is reasonable to expect. Now is the sandwich messed up or is just the salt packet missing? Of course if the salt packet is missing I let it slide. But if the sandwich is messed up you get 2 strikes, maybe a third if it is reallt really good.

Again, pick a business you frequent and ask yourself if you would go there if they messed up even twice.

As long as Customer Service is good, people will compromise.

100% isn't a realistic expectation, though. Mistakes will happen; Either on your order, or someone else's. It's the nature of humans being humans.

[Bird]

8 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

As long as Customer Service is good, people will compromise.

100% isn't a realistic expectation, though. Mistakes will happen; Either on your order, or someone else's. It's the nature of humans being humans.

Yes, again the degree of the mistake is important. But I again state, and if we were talking you would agree, you expect a business to get it right 100% of the time. Where else do you pay and accept 98%? Most businesses do actually provide 100% service. We can argue semantics over what is included but you do not go to a barber, restaurant, lawyer, doctor, plumber, dry cleaner, etc who makes the same mistake a second time.

Put another way...what kind of work do you do? Is it acceptable to only get 95% of it done correctly or 100%? Not meeting that standard is one thing for a business to consider, but accepting less is another.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Bird

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Bird said:

Yes, again the degree of the mistake is important. But I again state, and if we were talking you would agree, you expect a business to get it right 100% of the time. Where else do you pay and accept 98%? Most businesses do actually provide 100% service. We can argue semantics over what is included but you do not go to a barber, restaurant, lawyer, doctor, plumber, dry cleaner, etc who makes the same mistake a second time.

Put another way...what kind of work do you do? Is it acceptable to only get 95% of it done correctly or 100%? Not meeting that standard is one thing for a business to consider, but accepting less is another.

No, I do not expect any business to accomplish 100%. That would simply be unrealistic and I would be letting myself down. There is not a single business that accomplishes 100%.

I don't have particular records for which business have wronged me how often. This is because they usually make it right. Good Customer Service will leave me satisfied.

I'm an automotive CDE. Basically a Design Engineer. Not all designs are 100%. Not all products are delivered as-expected. It's not my department to track those stats, so I can't say exactly what our delivered scrap rate is. Nobody expects 100% in this business, though; And they shouldn't.

What is an 'acceptable' rate of mistakes will vary P2P. I'd probably be happy with a >95% success rate from CGC. You have to remember that they don't have much competition, and the competition makes the same errors. It's not like I can just jump ship from CVS to Walgreens.

[Bird]

12 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

No, I do not expect any business to accomplish 100%. That would simply be unrealistic and I would be letting myself down. There is not a single business that accomplishes 100%.

I don't have particular records for which business have wronged me how often. This is because they usually make it right. Good Customer Service will leave me satisfied.

I'm an automotive CDE. Basically a Design Engineer. Not all designs are 100%. Not all products are delivered as-expected. It's not my department to track those stats, so I can't say exactly what our delivered scrap rate is. Nobody expects 100% in this business, though; And they shouldn't.

What is an 'acceptable' rate of mistakes will vary P2P. I'd probably be happy with a >95% success rate from CGC. You have to remember that they don't have much competition, and the competition makes the same errors. It's not like I can just jump ship from CVS to Walgreens.

I think we both like to argue. And I think we are still talking about slightly different things/views.

The company side is one thing, yes 100% is tough to get for anything. But the customer side is another thing. Lights will go on, phone will work, etc. You will walk out of each store with what you wanted. Is every hamburger the same size and made the same way, of course not. But the product meets the need and is acceptable. Again, every professional you go to today you expect to get it right. AS YOU SHOULD. 100% of the time. 

I don't think I have ever been wronged by a company though. (WAIT! The french auction house wronged me, cornette de saont cyr!!!) Mistakes aren't personal. 

Many businesses strive for and accomplish 100%. Most airlines deliver 100% of their passengers every year. Not letting myself down there, counting on that one actually. ;-)

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, Bird said:

...Again, every professional you go to today you expect to get it right. AS YOU SHOULD. 100% of the time...

At this point, all I can say is: No. You would just be setting yourself up for disappointment.

[Bird]

19 minutes ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

At this point, all I can say is: No. You would just be setting yourself up for disappointment.

(well, don't tell that to the people who handle your money!)

At work, don't you expect payroll and timeoff accounting to be on point every time?  

I expect good service 100% of the time and rarely raise a ruckus, rarely disappointed. But there are places I don't shop anymore, it isn't a fuss though. Those places are fine for those who feel they are served well.

QC at cgc should expect and maintain 100% efficiency, at least on obvious standards (I have no idea what there standards are obviously). That is not unreasonable (grading would be unreasonable as it is subjective and hard to operationalize). No scuffed wells, no floating matter, correct book in correct label, no typos, no upside down books.

Not expecting 100% is fine, mistakes happen, but that is an individual and case-by-case basis. The company, nor its' customers, should not be resorting to "no one is perfect" as a response to poor QC. That is making excuses for them, they need to be better. No competition is a fact but that just means they are lazy about it.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Bird

[theCapraAegagrus]

2 minutes ago, Bird said:

At work, don't you expect payroll and timeoff accounting to be on point every time? 

QC at cgc should expect and maintain 100% efficiency, at least on obvious standards (I have no idea what there standards are obviously). That is not unreasonable (grading would be unreasonable as it is subjective and hard to operationalize). No scuffed wells, no floating matter, correct book in correct label, no typos, no upside down books.

Not expecting 100% is fine, mistakes happen, but that is an individual and case-by-case basis. The company, nor its' customers, should be resorting to "no one is perfect" as a response to poor QC. That is making excuses for them, they need to be better. No competition is a fact but that just means they are lazy about it.

Those are automated, so... Yes, because human error has been removed.

Quality Control is a human process and I would never expect 100% efficiency.

[Gaard]

What about McDonald's? They're 100%. They NEVER get my order wrong.

 

[Bird]

16 minutes ago, Gaard said:

What about McDonald's? They're 100%. They NEVER get my order wrong.

 

tell me about it! I get sausage & egg mcmuffin with no cheese. I have had every combination possible, even muffin and only cheese, no egg no sausage. But I avoid one mcd's in town precisely because they struggle with the no cheese issue bit the other always gets it right. 

there QC is spread along the production line but some stores are clearly lacking

 

[lostboys]

I understand that expecting 100% satisfaction from any business may be unrealistic.

In this case though, i don't think it is.

All im asking is that CGC doesn't send me cases with scuffs, scratches, foreign objects or Newton rings.

 

 

 

[Gaard]

3 hours ago, Bird said:

tell me about it! I get sausage & egg mcmuffin with no cheese. I have had every combination possible, even muffin and only cheese, no egg no sausage. But I avoid one mcd's in town precisely because they struggle with the no cheese issue bit the other always gets it right. 

there QC is spread along the production line but some stores are clearly lacking

 

They threw me a curveball Sunday. I ordered 1 Sausage McMuffin & 1 hash brown. I got home and they had given me four of each! I was on cloud 9.

Now I know what winning the Lotto feels like!

[Math Teacher]

I have tried to stay away from this topic, because my big mouth often gets me into trouble (even when I'm typing).

I agree with @Bird 100%. We should expect companies to be successful 100% of the time. Yes, we all know that's not possible. But most businesses go out of their way to make things right.

If I order a steak rare and it comes well-done, I contact my waiter/waitress and send it back. The restaurant doesn't think twice about replacing it.
If I order a Big Mac at McDonald's with no cheese, I send it back if it arrives with cheese. McDs doesn't even even think twice about replacing it.

Some of you make think, "Oh, those are just trivial matters." How about this one?

I took my car to a local shop to get the tires rotated (this is a life-time guarantee because I bought all four tires from the same shop). One of the lug nuts was not tightened well. The tire came off, bending all the lug nuts, ruining the wheel, and actually doing some damage to the rear quarter panel. This shop did all the repairs, and even paid for a rental car for me until the damages were repaired. I was then told that, if I have any problems, to bring it in and they will look at it for free. Again, this company didn't think twice about repairing the damage that they essentially caused.

Now, compare these examples to CGC's behavior. There was a thread (I am sure someone will link it) a while back where a person sent in a copy of Avengers #4, and it was damaged while at CGC. I know that there is more to this story, but that's the gist of it. The right thing for CGC to do would be to find a replacement copy that was in the same grade or higher. But we all know that this is not what happened.

I have no problem in expecting for my books to be treated well and returned to me in the same condition I sent them. Yes, mistakes will happen. All CGC needs to do is make it right to the customer's satisfaction. No, a customer can't send in an Avengers #4 in VG condition, find that it has been damaged, and then demand, "The only way I will be satisfied is if you replace it with an Avengers #4 in CGC 6.0 with white pages." That's totally ridiculous.

Here's a very simple motto that some companies live by: "If we mess it up, we will make it right!"

Edited June 2, 2021 by Math Teacher

[Math Teacher]

8 hours ago, theCapraAegagrus said:

100% isn't a realistic expectation, though. Mistakes will happen; Either on your order, or someone else's. It's the nature of humans being humans.

It's all right to have that as an expectation, but, as you mentioned, 100% is an awful high bar to reach. But it is then the company's responsibility to make things right. That is not what is happening here.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Math Teacher

[Bird]

we get 3 graders on each book, the volume of QC work is much higher than graders (I assume since all rivers flow through QC)...do we get more than one person conducting QC? Lack of vigilance, fatigue and training would be main issues...add another person at the end of the line perhaps? Every job has QC, either built in along with other duties or broken off alone, but having more eyes solves most of those problems.

okay, I don't want to dominate the thread so I will try to back off now

CGC rocks! A little fine tuning is all that is needed IMO. (now don't get me started on 51 working days for reholders?)

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Bird

[Jeffro.]

17 hours ago, Kevin76 said:

Of course CGC QC can be better

However collectors expect perfection each and every time, ask yourself "When I go to work and do my job, am I absolutely perfect at what I do every time day after day?  of course not.  Is your spouse perfect?  Are your kids perfect?  No, But you accept their flaws and carry on.   

 

I don't think anyone expects perfection but some of the egregious issues we've recently seen should never have left their facility. It seems plausible that in some cases, the slabs were not inspected before they left Sarasota. What's even more disturbing is their lack of accountability in fixing those things that go wrong.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Jeffro.