CGC misses married wrap & other work on $10,000+ book, designates professional Conservation work done with all archival, reversible materials as "C" level resto. This is a HUGE problem... 5 5

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/4/2021 at 4:08 PM, Phill the Governor said:

You are continuing to add confusion to the thread by asserting ambiguous statements which are incorrect.

Incorrect, again. Conserved labels are simply masking the fact that the work done is still classified as restoration.

[Sauce Dog]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:15 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Incorrect, again. Conserved labels are simply masking the fact that the work done is still classified as restoration.

We get it, you don't like conservation/restoration at all, but there is an objective difference between the two in all fields of paper-based hobbies and the criteria behind each of them (in all hobbies even; Automotive restoration is not the same as automotive conservation and has clear guidelines!). 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:48 AM, Sauce Dog said:

We get it, you don't like conservation/restoration at all, but there is an objective difference between the two in all fields of paper-based hobbies and the criteria behind each of them (in all hobbies even; Automotive restoration is not the same as automotive conservation and has clear guidelines!). 

Actually, I don't mind restoration at all. Just call a spade "spade".

[Sauce Dog]

On 8/9/2021 at 9:55 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Actually, I don't mind restoration at all. Just call a spade "spade".

Simply saying any work done to a comic is restoration would be incorrect (I think some of the confusion for collectors is that CGC used the word 'restored' from the start and utilizes the same scale for conservation now which you are mentioning, but that only indicates amount/quality and does not saying anything about what is being done), yes - saying its all 'restored / restoration' is a common colloquialism short hand with the layman, and we all know what it means - however when discussing the actual details and industry standards there is a major difference & impact.

Thinking about this only from the comic book stand point might not make it clear how different things are, as the methods might not seem as varied as they might be in other industries:

Is film conservation the same as film restoration?
Is automotive conservation the same as automotive restoration?
Is painting conservation the same as painting restoration?
Is dental conservation the same as dental restoration?
is ecological conservation the same as ecological restoration?
is digital conservation the same as digital restoration?

Nope across the board (my wife and I literally work with three of the above sectors). Words have meaning and expectations in use - especially when purchasing services to be done. Yes, there is some overlap between such conservation/restoration services in all these sectors, sure, but they are still totally separate things and expertises.  

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/9/2021 at 10:30 AM, Sauce Dog said:

Simply saying any work done to a comic is restoration would be incorrect (I think some of the confusion for collectors is that CGC used the word 'restored' from the start and utilizes the same scale for conservation now which you are mentioning, but that only indicates amount/quality and does not saying anything about what is being done), yes - saying its all 'restored / restoration' is a common colloquialism short hand with the layman, and we all know what it means - however when discussing the actual details and industry standards there is a major difference & impact.

Thinking about this only from the comic book stand point might not make it clear how different things are, as the methods might not seem as varied as they might be in other industries:

Is film conservation the same as film restoration?
Is automotive conservation the same as automotive restoration?
Is painting conservation the same as painting restoration?
Is dental conservation the same as dental restoration?
is ecological conservation the same as ecological restoration?
is digital conservation the same as digital restoration?

Nope across the board (my wife and I literally work with three of the above sectors). Words have meaning and expectations in use - especially when purchasing services to be done. Yes, there is some overlap between such conservation/restoration services in all these sectors, sure, but they are still totally separate things and expertises.  

According to CGC: If you use the same materials via "conservation", but violate the limited quantity scale, then it's "restored".
It's an arbitrary limitation, and any means of modifying its condition beyond original is restoration.
Other authorities will have different definitions for what is "conservation". If you accept that it's all restoration, then you won't be disappointed.

[kav]

conserved is to prevent further degradation.  restored is not.  the end.

[Courageous Cat]

just stumbled across this thread. Why are the majority making excuses for cgc? I cracked out a Whiz #4/5 5.0 blue label no mention of any defects. Opened the book to the middle and the centerfold was completely detached. That was a fun discovery 

[Courageous Cat]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:32 PM, Donado said:

Are you referring to the grading notes?

no, I never paid for the notes. The book was simply a 5.0 with no mention of any defects. I know mistakes can happen, but sheesh 

[Courageous Cat]

On 8/9/2021 at 6:43 PM, Donado said:

Why do you think they would mention that info on the label?  

Centerfold detached maybe? That’s pretty important IMO 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Courageous Cat

[Courageous Cat]

Pressed and resubmitted… came back same grace with centerfold detached notation on label 

[thehumantorch]

On 8/9/2021 at 7:48 AM, Sauce Dog said:

We get it, you don't like conservation/restoration at all, but there is an objective difference between the two in all fields of paper-based hobbies and the criteria behind each of them (in all hobbies even; Automotive restoration is not the same as automotive conservation and has clear guidelines!). 

Perhaps but the OP is complaining that the conservation/restoration he has done is now being treated differently and that suggests the guidelines aren't clear.

[Sauce Dog]

On 8/9/2021 at 7:50 PM, thehumantorch said:

Perhaps but the OP is complaining that the conservation/restoration he has done is now being treated differently and that suggests the guidelines aren't clear.

Yes, which is the issue. CGC needs to set clear guidelines, especially for those doing this work for years and that are in communication with them, and be transparent if there are change to such standards (especially important if they are trying to set their own internal standards that differ from any external conservation standards)

[Sauce Dog]

On 8/9/2021 at 5:11 PM, Donado said:

 Yup, Conservation is a sub-category of Restoration.

FYI CGC saying it doesn't make it an actual industry fact, just something they are using to better communicate their new offering (specifically because they had a Restored label first, so the introduction of Conservation is secondary in the grand scheme of their labels). If we are just going to use definitions as they apply to CGC only and only how they use them, sure that's fine since people use the terms preservation, conservation, and restoration interchangeably. However, these terms actually mean something quite different to professionals.

It would be more accurate to say Conservation and Restoration are sub-categories of the umbrella Preservation category, though Conservation itself, as it relates to books/paper, was coined first and was described as "incorporating the fields of bookbinding, restoration, paper chemistry, and other material technologies including preservation and archival techniques."