CGC misses married wrap & other work on $10,000+ book, designates professional Conservation work done with all archival, reversible materials as "C" level resto. This is a HUGE problem... 5 5

[thehumantorch]

On 7/28/2021 at 7:58 AM, Phill the Governor said:

As I can tell, grading standards/ quality control across the board are at an all time low at CGC- correlating to their current diminishing reputation.

 

We've seen a number of threads about CGC's quality control lately and that would support your belief.  

[thehumantorch]

On 7/28/2021 at 9:57 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

@Phill the Governor -- I've been saying this all year. CGC's resto check and notation needs to be readdressed. 

 

Is a small bit of mending paper added to the spine:

A) Cover reinforced

B) Pieces added

C) All of the above

CGC sometimes goes with A, sometimes B, sometimes both. And it can vary when resubmitting the same book. 

 

If a corner piece is replaced with leaf casting is the book:

A) Trimmed on two edges

B) Trimmed on one edge

C) No trimming at all

CGC sometimes notates the removal of the excess paper as trimmed. Sometimes they don't. And again, it changed when resubbing the same book.

 

This has happened twice on two $10,000+ books and the answer I was given was "The first grade was wrong, this new grade is right." 

Hero Restoration (which does fine work) also resubbed a Batman 1 and the trimming magically disappeared. 

 

 

Using leaf casting to hide trimming and similar procedures bothers me. 

[KCOComics]

I never got the impression @Phill the Governor was trying to game the system. 

CGC sets rules and restorers / conserves understand pretty well what work falls into which category. If a customer says, "i want a conserved label", Phill's job is to understand what work will get a conserved label. 

I see no issue with that. 

I've had a well known restorer handle several of my books. Through his work I've gotten both conserved and purple labels, but we've always had an open dialog on the best course of action for a given book.

The key in all of this is disclosing exactly what work has been done to all relevant parties. If technics are improving to a point where CGC can no longer decipher what work has been done, then something needs to change. 

That's why I kept detailed records on everything I've ever had done. I've shared it with CGC and I'll share it at the point in time I want to sell the books. 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

The fact of the matter is that whoever graded the book(s) did not give it/them the A-1 restoration designation that is required for a Conserved label. Let's be clear: A conserved label is still denoting that the book is restored.

Maybe your quality of work is not as good as it once was.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 7/28/2021 at 6:23 PM, thehumantorch said:

Using leaf casting to hide trimming and similar procedures bothers me. 

I don't mind it. I guess I had to get my brain around it because it's going to become more common on mega books like that Batman 1. What I have a problem with is the inconsistency in how it's graded from book to book. Either call it trimming or don't call it trimming, but CGC should have a standard for all books. (I say this knowing that current standards have never applied to GA books...)

[Aman619]

Just a quick question… after leafcasting , is the entire edge trimmed (both the leaf casted areas and the original paper) to get a perfect straight edge?  Would this be cause to label it trimmed?

[Sauce Dog]

On 7/29/2021 at 6:27 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The fact of the matter is that whoever graded the book(s) did not give it/them the A-1 restoration designation that is required for a Conserved label. Let's be clear: A conserved label is still denoting that the book is restored.

Maybe your quality of work is not as good as it once was.

So that shows it is in fact a CGC grading issue and not a quality of work, if the SAME book that was marked restored was then re-evaluated again and found to be Conserved by CGC.

Professionals work with established industry standards, for materials and techniques, so the same Conservation technique that was used for years is now being regarded as Restoration is a surprise and call for clarification. If CGC has changed their guidelines then they should specify this clearly and explicitly.

I've used several restoration/conservationists over the years and have personally found that when something comes back from CGC restored it was due to them suddenly changing things even after the professional looped in CGC for every step of the process (in one early case the pro was in direct discussion with Matt about a book he was working on for me, Matt did look over the work being done, the amount of work, and methods used and agreed it wasn't restoration...but that wasn't the case when it came back months later). How do you explain this book having conservation work done on it but ending up at a restored B-2 when first graded coming directly from the pro doing the work, but then regraded as A-1 after a re-grade, and then again regraded as Conserved with zero changes to the book between each submission and the same work docs provided each step of the way? That isn't about the person who did the work (especially with consultation with Matt) but the graders on the CGC side.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/29/2021 at 10:57 AM, Sauce Dog said:

So that shows it is in fact a CGC grading issue and not a quality of work, if the SAME book that was marked restored was then re-evaluated again and found to be Conserved by CGC.

Professionals work with established industry standards, for materials and techniques, so the same Conservation technique that was used for years is now being regarded as Restoration is a surprise and call for clarification. If CGC has changed their guidelines then they should specify this clearly and explicitly.

I've used several restoration/conservationists over the years and have personally found that when something comes back from CGC restored it was due to them suddenly changing things even after the professional looped in CGC for every step of the process (in one early case the pro was in direct discussion with Matt about a book he was working on for me, Matt did look over the work being done, the amount of work, and methods used and agreed it wasn't restoration...but that wasn't the case when it came back months later). How do you explain this book having conservation work done on it but ending up at a restored B-2 when first graded coming directly from the pro doing the work, but then regraded as A-1 after a re-grade, and then again regraded as Conserved with zero changes to the book between each submission and the same work docs provided each step of the way? That isn't about the person who did the work (especially with consultation with Matt) but the graders on the CGC side.

All "conservation" is restoration to CGC. You simply get a Conserved label if the quality and quantity meet the A-1 Restored standard.

[Sauce Dog]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:00 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

All "conservation" is restoration to CGC. You simply get a Conserved label if the quality and quantity meet the A-1 Restored standard.

Yeah, we all get that. Nobody is arguing that exact requirement.

If the work done was A-1, following all previously assigned A-1 work as agreed by CGC themselves, but then comes back B-2 and on a regrade gets back to A-1 and then Conserved label on another regrade, that is solely CGCs issue - not the original work of the professional. Why is this so hard to understand the frustration of industry professionals trying to 'guess' what the standards of CGC are from day to day?

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:12 AM, Sauce Dog said:

Yeah, we all get that. Nobody is arguing that exact requirement.

If the work done was A-1, following all previously assigned A-1 work as agreed by CGC themselves, but then comes back B-2 and on a regrade gets back to A-1 and then Conserved label on another regrade, that is solely CGCs issue - not the original work of the professional. Why is this so hard to understand the frustration of industry professionals trying to 'guess' what the standards of CGC are from day to day?

It's the same as getting a 9.4, sending it back and getting a 9.8, then sending it back and getting a 9.6.

If a 40-year old guy can spot the restoration, but the 70-year old cannot, then you're gonna get different receptions.

Simply put: The Conserved label shouldn't exist. Restoration is restoration.

[shadroch]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:12 AM, Sauce Dog said:

Yeah, we all get that. Nobody is arguing that exact requirement.

If the work done was A-1, following all previously assigned A-1 work as agreed by CGC themselves, but then comes back B-2 and on a regrade gets back to A-1 and then Conserved label on another regrade, that is solely CGCs issue - not the original work of the professional. Why is this so hard to understand the frustration of industry professionals trying to 'guess' what the standards of CGC are from day to day?

CGC has standards? 

[vheflin]

Conservation is preventing further damage, i.e. reinforcing staple areas so the cover doesn't fall off, deacidifying, etc.

Everything else is resto and shouldn't be reclassified.

[Sauce Dog]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:17 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

It's the same as getting a 9.4, sending it back and getting a 9.8, then sending it back and getting a 9.6.

If a 40-year old guy can spot the restoration, but the 70-year old cannot, then you're gonna get different receptions.

Simply put: The Conserved label shouldn't exist. Restoration is restoration.

That is in no way comparable. Grading can be subjective which I agree, but the presence of restoration isn't subjective - it is either there or it isn't (especially if it is explicitly disclosed to the graders with documentation). 


 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:32 AM, Sauce Dog said:

That is in no way comparable. Grading can be subjective which I agree, but the presence of restoration isn't subjective - it is either there or it isn't (especially if it is explicitly disclosed to the graders with documentation).

It absolutely is. How much a defect impacts a comic book is just as subjective as to how much restoration is 'too much' for a Conserved label. That's why it shouldn't exist; Remove as much subjectivity as possible.

Edited July 29, 2021 by theCapraAegagrus

[MatterEaterLad]

On 7/29/2021 at 8:24 AM, Aman619 said:

Just a quick question… after leafcasting , is the entire edge trimmed (both the leaf casted areas and the original paper) to get a perfect straight edge?  Would this be cause to label it trimmed?

I wish I had a clear answer.

I subbed a book with a leaf casted corner (I'm talking 1/4") and it came back with no trimming. The only trimming was to remove the excess paper and align the new corner with the existing dimensions. 

Then I resubbed it and it came back with "Right and Bottom Edge Trimmed." 

The one that confounds me the most is that Batman 1. The entire top edge had been trimmed and then restored with leaf casting...and it came back untrimmed.  I haven't heard any dealers or big collectors weigh in on this, which is surprising. Or not. 

 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by MatterEaterLad

[The Lions Den]

On 7/29/2021 at 12:14 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I wish I had a clear answer.

I subbed a book with a leaf casted corner (I'm talking 1/4") and it came back with no trimming. The only trimming was to remove the excess paper and align the new corner with the existing dimensions. 

Then I resubbed it and it came back with "Right and Bottom Edge Trimmed." 

The one that confounds me the most is that Batman 1. The entire top edge had been trimmed and then restored with leaf casting...and it came back untrimmed.  I haven't heard any dealers or big collectors weigh in on this, which is surprising. Or not. 

 

 

To be honest, this doesn't surprise me at all...

[MatterEaterLad]

On 7/29/2021 at 11:24 AM, The Lions Den said:

To be honest, this doesn't surprise me at all...

Is it like the early days of pressing? Everyone doing it and no one wanted to admit it?

[Phill the Governor]

On 7/29/2021 at 6:27 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

The fact of the matter is that whoever graded the book(s) did not give it/them the A-1 restoration designation that is required for a Conserved label. Let's be clear: A conserved label is still denoting that the book is restored.

Maybe your quality of work is not as good as it once was.

Incorrect. A conserved label denotes that the book has been conserved. That's why there are two different terms used: "Restoration" and "Conservation". Saying they are the same thing does not change the reality that they are classified differently (despite some variable overlap), lending to two different terms that we use in our language to describe two different things.

Based on your responses here, and from the account Bonger (that is in all likelihood you as well, but doesn't matter either way), your clear disapproval of a separation between resto & conso labels exaggerates your bias. You do not appear to be seeking rational discussion; it appears your mind is made up and you just want to be confrontational about the subject. This causes your posts to come off as pernicious- in case you weren't aware.

Maybe your quality of thought is not as good as it once was.

 

 

 

 

 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 7/30/2021 at 5:05 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

To save any confusion....