Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:46 PM, Bronty said:

Additionally, some of the Abramson reports seem irresponsible to me.    I read something where Abramson questioned if Wata had a side deal with heritage to sell "moldy" games without the red label.    To my understanding, the red label is very new.   One wouldn't expect auctions from before the red label even existed, to carry the red label!   That is simply one example.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, and I think it's important to understand what the root of his concern was. Namely, that a game with mold bearing an old label was being sold without the buyer being able to screen it for mold the same way as buyers on Comicconnect's website. It also opens up a whole host of legitimate questions on the responsibility of the auction house and grader to pull that item, and that may include updating the label to reflect it's degraded state. The whole chaos that ensued with Eric and Haspel trying to belittle the concerns he raised made it more clear how unprofessional either of them are in understanding these concerns. If someone posted a high grade comic on these boards, and went by the label, not disclosing any damage or degradation, there would be appropriate repercussions, but in the age of social media, the person posting the issue on Twitter is seen as a dufus and out of touch with the reality of gaming by people who really should know better, but for some reason are acting dumb. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by comicwiz

[Jimmy Linguini]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:09 PM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

A fool born every minute.  

I have always picked up movies as it was my on demand before there ever was streaming. This was my Disney +

(One of my spare bedrooms/media/comic  rooms) 

There have always been a few that were/are valuable, but grading? 

I know there is one "company" that "grades" these still...   Nope...

I still watch most of these with my family as a lot of these are the original, unedited versions. (Pre PC ) 

Now if someone wants to fork out cash for them I may have to empty the shelves.  

Truth is that some do sell and it is a form of media that requires specific conditions to survive well. So I could see it being another eclectic niche. 

That said some of those crazy evaluations/ sales you see on ebay for the " black diamond " Disney Vhs are mostly burner accounts that you can be sure are either money laundering or sale of illicit goods . 

Do not get me wrong I had several sealed copies of a BUNCH of Disney and Horror movies as well as loads of Hard to find VHS that I have slowly sold some off for the last few years. 

Definitely not turning down good money. 

More money for comics. 

Can't take it all with me.

There are three companies that grade VHS and they only grade SEALED Vhs so they're really only grading the box art condition. Its weird but I have sold a heck of a lot of garbage this year so I am not complaining.

 

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:12 PM, comicwiz said:

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, and I think it's important to understand what the root of his concern was. Namely, that a game with mold bearing an old label was being sold without the buyer being able to screen it for mold the same way as buyers on Comicconnect's website. It also opens up a whole host of legitimate questions on the responsibility of the auction house and grader to pull that item, and that may include updating the label to reflect it's degraded state. The whole chaos that ensued with Eric and Haspel trying to belittle the concerns he raised made it more clear how unprofessional either of them are in understanding these concerns. If someone posted a high grade comic on these boards, and went by the label, not disclosing any damage or degradation, there would be appropriate repercussions, but in the age of social media, the person posting the issue on Twitter is seen as a dufus and out of touch with the reality of gaming by people who really should know better, but for some reason are acting dumb. 

Well Joe, did you realize that the mold designation is on the back label of the blue label mold games?   The disclosure is there and has always been, so far as I know.   The red label was presumably an attempt to make it more obvious to the consumer.   However, to my knowledge, the consumer has always been able to check for that notation on the label in the HA pics, to say nothing Of the fact that mold itself can be seen visually through the slab in most if not every case.   
 

So, that addresses your disclosure point.  
 

As to the nature of what his concern was, it’s my guess although it’s only a guess that it was simply said to be provocative, and I’ll tell you why.    He questioned how much additional revenue HA got from “blue label privilege.”    If it was a responsible question, he would have simply inquired as to how many such games have sold through heritage (almost none).    Net impact to HA’s bottom line would be neglible.   $1000 in fees for them?   $10000 at the high end?   For a company that reportedly manages auctions over 1 billion annually? 
 

So, when I see someone apparently trying to Color mold disclosure or non-disclosure as financially motivated when such auctions are almost non existent, I am left to wonder if it isn’t Seth Abramson’s writings about mold disclosure that are financially motivated.   

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bronty

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:35 PM, COI said:

Exactly. 

In gaming communities on youtube specifically, there is a very clear "callout culture" where independent youtubers are chomping at the bit to uncover the next conspiracy or major controversy. On the surface you'd think it's great that so many people are asking questions and trying to uncover things that really should be uncovered. The problem is that the nature of views/folllows/likes and how those things tie into ad revenue and sponsorships creates a perverse incentive for creators to adopt this style of shoot-first, ask questions later journalism, if it can even be called journalism. And they have no reason to be concerned with, nor are they accountable to, any serious code of ethics, beyond staying within the guidelines of the youtube terms of service. Even when they risk legal action with the claims they're making, any legal trouble they run into will be followed by some flavor of "gofundme" or "Patreon" with an appeal for help with the legal fees associated with "speaking truth to power!" or some other similar sentiment.

It's great that people have the ability to report independently, accrue revenue and an audience, and I'm sure that real good has been done because of it. But this isn't 2003 anymore where the worst that happens is someone is embarrassed and forced off the boards in some spectacular FDQ exit; making serious claims has potential serious ramifications for the people involved, financially or otherwise, including absurd/irrational/crazy stuff like death threats. So for all the people worried, understandably, about the ethics of auction houses and a small number of people getting rich off of another small number of rich folks, the least you could do is demand some commensurate level of ethics from the people "blowing the whistle". 

 

I think a lot of this depends on the audience. There's YouTuber's out there who are totally unhinged, say all sorts of stuff which is false, and the moment you have anyone trying to correct them, they go into attack mode. And it doesn't end in the comments section, they go after them on other social media sites, threaten them, their families, it's bonkers. Comparing this to what Jobst has done is contextually unfair, because he put the video out there, has responded to people who have voiced concerns, hasn't (as far as I know) backed down from any information coming forward that may disprove anything he said or wrote. Furthermore, this notion of monetizing content is a ship that long sailed. If I had to worry about the pennies I've been making people whose DIY videos have helped me figure out how to fix a broken furnace, replace my car deck, or even unlock the wheel on my grinder, I'd be paying thousands to have someone come and do it for me. I agree some people just don't deserve to have any views, but this is one of those situations where enough information was consolidated in one single video to make it simpler for people to understand how this manipulation took place. Ultimately, and in this instance, the real vetting is happening on these boards, by people who recognize the people at the center of these claims, and I believe there's value in allowing the crowds and self-regulating function of these boards to determine the validity of what is being presented. If enough people came here and said, this guys is a nutjob, cussed me out for disagreeing with him, or makes no sense, I'd agree that an avoidance strategy would be useful, but as it is, there's enough happening both from the video, and stories developing around what's been exposed to say it was worth it (even if you and others think it was half-baked). It's also remotely worth noting that people that have stuck their necks out even on these boards, and lived with the consequences of going after bad operators, are all but forgotten. My history here has been one where I've had to carefully choose my words, use restraint, even when it was better to let it all lay bear for the rest to understand and become fully aware, so when I see someone going for it the way Jobst did, I commend him, because it's easy to be a couch pundit and not have to deal with all the negative attention this sort of thing draws into your life. If it averts one person being scammed, it's worth it, and I'm sure he's thinking the same.

Edited August 27, 2021 by comicwiz

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:59 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I understand this 

So then you see how this entrenched view is making it hard for people to acknowledge the problems with the video.

I still haven't seen anyone address those points.

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:55 PM, Buzzetta said:

There is also something called "the fear of missing out."

All it takes is one impatient person to "raise GPA" for everyone else.  All it takes is one person that is willing to hold fast to find that one person who is afraid to miss out to capitalize on it.   I did something like this in an ethical way a few months ago where I took a book that I bought on Comiclink for $50 that no one seemed to have.  As there was no real data on GPA on the book, I went fishing and I put it on eBay for $325.  It sold for that price with the buyer also paying GSP to get it along with the regular shipping.

Once I sold that one graded copy, I saw a raw copy show up on Heritage.  People used my sale as a benchmark to assess how they should bid on the book and the raw copy sold for about the same in about the same grade on Heritage. Why bring this up?  That was with one book.  I went fishing and my sale influenced the market on at least two future sales.

Imagine using something like that to overtly manipulate the market.   Imagine what someone could do with multiples of the same book, listing them in multiple places on multiple exchanges and having a friend make an offer on a ridiculous asking price that is then turned down.  Everyone will see that the owner is turning down those prices so in order to get it, they must be willing to open the wallet even more.  It is basically shill bidding an exchange listing and that is what I think is going on with some comic books, and what is most likely going on with some games along with artificial inflation and trading things back and forth between the same people.

People are establishing artificial benchmarks in order to gain legitimized sales and basically concealing the artificial benchmarks between those legitimized sales. 

I do not understand collecting and grading the throw away packaging on digital media. At least comic books are intended as art to begin with

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:29 PM, Karl Liebl said:

I do not understand collecting and grading the throw away packaging on digital media. At least comic books are intended as art to begin with

Would you say that comic books were created as throw away media for children? 

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:21 PM, Bronty said:

As to the nature of what his concern was, it’s my guess although it’s only a guess that it was simply said to be provocative, and I’ll tell you why.    He questioned how much additional revenue HA got from “blue label privilege.”    If it was a responsible question, he would have simply inquired as to how many such games have sold through heritage (almost none).    Net impact to HA’s bottom line would be neglible.   $1000 in fees for them?   $10000 at the high end?   For a company that reportedly manages auctions over 1 billion annually? 
 

So, when I see someone apparently trying to Color mold disclosure or non-disclosure as financially motivated when such auctions are almost non existent, I am left to wonder if it isn’t Seth Abramson’s writings about mold disclosure that are financially motivated.   

That's a fair point. Ultimately, he went for broke raising concerns about the possibility of Heritage having some unfair advantage - I think it's one of those situations where everyone is still processing everything that's being reported. Some of it will be knee-jerk. I even showed an example from the "Promise Collection" that got a pedigree designation, hammering for over $10K, that looks like one of the biggest gift grade 8.5's I've ever seen in my entire time on these boards. With the track record of both the grader and the auction house, to have allowed that book to sell, and leave it to the community to notice and point out - well, unfortunately you leave yourself open to people publicly raising those questions and concerns. How fair is that airing of dirty laundry to the purchaser?

And like I said from very early on in this thread, this will have a ripple effect on more than just the video game market, everyone that's invested in anything these guys have touched are watching everything very closely.

Edited August 27, 2021 by comicwiz

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:27 PM, comicwiz said:

I think a lot of this depends on the audience. There's YouTuber's out there who are totally unhinged, say all sorts of stuff which is false, and the moment you have anyone trying to correct them, they go into attack mode. And it doesn't end in the comments section, they go after them on other social media sites, threaten them, their families, it's bonkers. Comparing this to what Jobst has done is contextually unfair, because he put the video out there, has responded to people who have voiced concerns, hasn't (as far as I know) backed down from any information coming forward that may disprove anything he said or wrote. Furthermore, this notion of monetizing content is a ship that long sailed. If I had to worry about the pennies I've been making people whose DIY videos have helped me figure out how to fix a broken furnace, replace my car deck, or even unlock the wheel on my grinder, I'd be paying thousands to have someone come and do it for me. I agree some people just don't deserve to have any views, but this is one of those situations where enough information was consolidated in one single video to make it simpler for people to understand how this manipulation took place. Ultimately, how the real vetting is happening on these boards, by people who recognize the people at the center of these claims, and I believe there's value in allowing the crowds and self-regulating function of these boards to determine the validity of what is being presented. If enough people came here and said, this guys is a nutjob, cussed me out for disagreeing with him, or makes no sense, I'd agree that an avoidance strategy would be useful, but as it is, there's enough happening both from the video, and stories developing around what's been exposed to say it was worth it (even if you an others think it was half-baked). It's also remotely worth noting that people that have stuck their necks out even on these boards, and lived with the consequences of going after bad operators, are all but forgotten. My history here has been one where I've had to carefully choose my words, use restraint, even when it was better to let it all lay bear for the rest to understand and become fully aware, so when I see someone going for it the way Jobst did, I commend him, because it's easy to be a couch pundit and not have to deal with all the negative attention this sort of thing draws into your life. If it averts one person being scammed, it's worth it, and I'm sure he's thinking the same.

Did he at any time attempt to contact the people he's accusing for comment? It's a genuine question because I don't know.

And to be clear, at no point did I advocate for an "avoidance strategy" as you put it. I never said the video is completely worthless, should be avoided, etc, and I never said anything about the guy himself. In fact, I opened with "he did a reasonable job asking questions with the information he has", but I'll say it again, the thoroughness of his fact-finding doesn't make his overall arguments strong. 

I didn't do this, nor would I recommend it, but considering that his argument depends on ascribing motives, you can't be shocked when people in-turn decide to ascribe motives to him. I would be more sympathetic to his "courage" to speak out, if the outrage community on youtube hasn't already proven that they'll circle the wagons for their favorite content creators. You can see that this already happened for him in his fight with Billy Mitchell, the guy suing everyone for questioning his gaming world records. So the precedent is there, and he already knows the risk/rewards associated with making this kind of material.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:39 PM, COI said:

Fair. I'm all for being super clear about what we're actually discussing, and what is relevant to what we're discussing. 

I'm all for discussing whether it's ethical/legal for auction houses and grading companies to buy collectibles at record prices and then promote them as evidence of a booming market. And whether it's ethical/legal for grading company owners to grade their own collectibles and sell them through third parties. I mean, we hammered PGX for doing it, why does WATA get a pass?

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:38 PM, COI said:

Did he at any time attempt to contact the people he's accusing for comment? It's a genuine question because I don't know.

You can call the maker of the video a crank, but there are other people digging into this. Seth Abramson has apparently tried contacted everyone involved (Hey Bronty, has he contacted you?). Abramson has been updating his posts as statements come in. I do think Jobst points to a lot of smoke and declares there must be fire, which may not be accurate. Abramson, I think, does a better job of showing how WATA founders actively promoted this "record breaking sale" without disclosing they were the buyers.  

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:38 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I'm all for discussing whether it's ethical/legal for auction houses and grading companies to buy collectibles at record prices and then promote them as evidence of a booming market. And whether it's ethical/legal for grading company owners to grade their own collectibles and sell them through third parties. I mean, we hammered PGX for doing it, why does WATA get a pass?

Good question. I don't know exactly, but I'd guess it's because PGX had a poor reputation from the jump, CGC was the market leader by a wide margin, and it's reasonable to assume that everyone around here has/had a vested interest in CGC, as collectors and dealers. If your point is that in general, people apply their ethics selectively based on their interests and biases, then I'm right there with you.

Edited August 27, 2021 by COI

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:32 PM, Bronty said:

Would you say that comic books were created as throw away media for children? 

People buy comics for the story and art. People buy video games for the game. If you are buying it for the package you have a screw loose. Collect bottle caps or something....

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:45 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

You can call the maker of the video a crank, but there are other people digging into this. Seth Abramson has apparently tried contacted everyone involved (Hey Bronty, has he contacted you?). Abramson has been updating his posts as statements come in. I do think Jobst points to a lot of smoke and declares there must be fire, which may not be accurate. Abramson, I think, does a better job of showing how WATA founders actively promoted this "record breaking sale" without disclosing they were the buyers.  

Great. If these updates include correcting himself when errors are pointed out, I'm all for it, especially now that some of the people he made the video about are now in a position to respond.

[Gotham Kid]

On 8/27/2021 at 8:39 AM, Buzzetta said:

"Alexa, how many more days until June 30, 2030."

@Buzzetta

June 30th 2030 will mark my 30th wedding anniversary

Edited August 27, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:29 PM, Karl Liebl said:

At least comic books are intended as art to begin with

Nah, they were originally intended for kids to consume, then toss.

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:38 PM, COI said:

Did he at any time attempt to contact the people he's accusing for comment? It's a genuine question because I don't know.

I vaguely recollect he either said this on Twitter, in the YouTube comments, or both - he did attempt contact with Deniz Kahn but never heard back from him. I'm unsure if he attempted to contact any of the others.

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:53 PM, Gotham Kid said:

June 30th 2030 will mark my 30th wedding anniversary

I'm so, so sorry. 

[Karl Liebl]

Hamurabi I beg to report to you sir!  There has been a plague and famine and half of your population is gone!

excellent!

old video games stink!

[Bronty]

Well Joe, there’s always going to be over and under grading through both human error and simple difference of opinion.   The 8.5 you posted looks over graded to me.   Other books have looked very well graded.   People who have seen the books in person tell me they present incredibly well.    We have to expect that every grading company will both over and under grade, so I don’t know what possible conclusion about improper behaviour could be drawn from an over graded book being sold on HA.     Regardless, at this point after trimming and pressing infiltrated the market it is somewhat academic is it not?   You pretty well have to expect that every grade out there has been manipulated.   I have always been against pressing and restoration of any kind tbh.    I wish people would just leave things alone.    But, where there is a financial incentive people will do what they can or feel they must to get full value when they sell.   I have never had a single book pressed.    Have you, have others on this thread?    Isn’t it a bit odd to decry the grade of any particular book at this point?   There are almost no vintage, truly untampered with books in existence at this point.    Comic book collecting, frankly, has been a cesspool for a long time, and that’s why despite continuing to participate on these boards , I have not collected comics apart from from a small number of Canadian golden age, for almost twenty years now.   I’ll always love the subject matter, but to keep track of whatever manipulation is being done to old paper this week is too much for me to want to deal with.  
 

As to any ripple effect, assuming there even was a splash that created a ripple, there are competing grading services and auction houses , are there not?    Vacuums get filled quickly.    More to the point though, let’s draw an analogy.    I am not a coin collector.    If coin collecting fell off a cliff tomorrow , would that change my collecting any?   Not an iota.     Assuming you are not a coin collector , I can’t imagine a coin implosion would effect you either.     

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bronty