Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:54 PM, COI said:

Nah, they were originally intended for kids to consume, then toss.

What was to be consumed by the kid?

[comicwiz]

@COIit was on Twitter

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:57 PM, Karl Liebl said:

What was to be consumed by the kid?

The "art". 

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:53 PM, Gotham Kid said:

June 30th 2030 will mark my 30th wedding anniversary

Omg today is my 27th anniversary of saying nope to girl who wanted me to marry her and thereby dodging bullet!

[Buzzetta]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:29 PM, Karl Liebl said:

I do not understand collecting and grading the throw away packaging on digital media. At least comic books are intended as art to begin with

@comicwiz and @Bronty both have more experience with the nuances that I am going to try to explain so you guys feel free to jump in.  You two might disagree on a couple of the aspects or issues I raise but I *think* I can presently explain the basics somewhat clearly.  

Let's back off the idea of comics being art.  The original art is the art and comics are collected bound printed volumes of the art on paper.   Let's forget about comics all together because in reality, as far as I am concerned the only true graded collectable that does not interfere with the usability of the collectable is sports and gaming cards since you can flip it over and get the same experience and usability of the item regardless of whether or not it is graded. 

Grading a video game is really nothing more than grading the packaging it came in and assuming that the contents not only are there and work but that all factory issued paperwork is present.  This mentality toward collecting is very much related to MIB (Mint in Box) toy grading.  You assume that all of the contents contained in the sealed box are also mint and unbroken and were manufactured correctly.   The mentality is that to obtain a sealed box of a toy you are trying to have the most perfect representation of that sealed item as it came off the production floor. 

Now are there problems with this?  Absolutely.  Let's go back to Lego.  Check this listing out on eBay as it is the FMV going rate for this set at around $400.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/224369239367 Lego 10223, Kingdom's Joust is a representation of what everyone collects when they collect MIB samples of items and everything that can go wrong.  To continue this I am going to assume that you are all clicking the link to look at the pictures.  The year that this set arrived, Lego introduced a new plastic recipe for lack of a better word for their brown bricks.   The bricks were VERY brittle and broke easily with many of those parts finding themselves into this particular theme of sets.  I have two of them with both opened.  Lego actually addressed the problem and offered replacement parts.  Everyone learned of this problem within a couple of years.  The plastic dried out VERY quickly and would just snap.  Article LEGO Apologizes for Brittle, Reddish Brown Bricks – Assures Problem is Now Solved.

Now we have a question on that sealed $400 Lego set on eBay.  What are you buying when you buy that set?   I assure you that the set has those particular bricks in question that will snap.  Again, I know because I have two of the sets and have had to swap out the brown bricks.   Are you buying a presentation of the best model you could find off the shelf of your favorite toy?   Are you buying an actual Lego set to open and build?  If it is the second one, you can still contact Lego and they will help you out.  However, the value of the set has gone down once you open the package.

The same holds true with vintage SW Toys still sealed in the box, Transformers were not sold in window boxes, and most definitely the one thing I always tell people to stay away from, MIB GI Joe playsets which contain the most brittle plastic I have ever seen.  

With a video game you are not buying a graded and sealed game to play the same way you are not buying a graded and sealed comic to read.   It's supposed to sit on your shelf and look pretty.   However, yes, you do not know if the game will actually work just the same way that I can tell you that I have no idea if the $1,300 sealed Lego set I sold last month has problems with the brown bricks.    You won't know unless you crack it open and see.  But once you do that you no longer have a factory sealed sample of the best representation possible of the product. 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Buzzetta

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:57 PM, comicwiz said:

@COIit was on Twitter

Okay, good. 1 of 4 is better than none.

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:58 PM, COI said:

The "art". 

Exactly. 

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:48 PM, COI said:

Great. If these updates include correcting himself when errors are pointed out, I'm all for it, especially now that some of the people he made the video about are now in a position to respond.

Jobst makes his argument in the same medium (YouTube) that others use to declare that the Earth is flat. So he's already operating at a disadvantage. 

Abramson is a gamer with a law degree from Harvard. People can hate his politics and his gonzo style, but he's digging, quoting, and documenting.

Whether what he's finding is illegal or not remains to be seen. There are so many business practices that fall into a gray area of legality and are allowed to keep happening until enough people legally compel them to change. WATA juicing the marketplace and Halperin mega-shilling his own auctions--that stuff being dragged into the light of day, to me, is a good thing for collectors who want a legitimate marketplace, not one with massive price manipulation. 

 

[Gotham Kid]

On 8/27/2021 at 10:55 PM, COI said:

I'm so, so sorry. 

Birthday was June 28th was still drunk on the 30th. Remained drunk ever since.

But it is the truth, June 30th 2030 will be my 30th.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[Buzzetta]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:53 PM, Gotham Kid said:

@Buzzetta

June 30th 2030 will mark my 30th wedding anniversary

We will both be celebrating that day.  

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:53 PM, Gotham Kid said:

June 30th 2030 will mark my 30th wedding anniversary

I got married on 08/08/08 and still forget my anniversary. 

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:02 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Jobst makes his argument in the same medium (YouTube) that others use to declare that the Earth is flat. So he's already operating at a disadvantage. 

Abramson is a gamer with a law degree from Harvard. People can hate his politics and his gonzo style, but he's digging, quoting, and documenting.

Whether what he's finding is illegal or not remains to be seen. There are so many business practices that fall into a gray area of legality and are allowed to keep happening until enough people legally compel them to change. WATA juicing the marketplace and Halperin mega-shilling his own auctions--that stuff being dragged into the light of day, to me, is a good thing for collectors who want a legitimate marketplace, not one with massive price manipulation. 

 

For what it's worth, the first two things I bolded are examples of the exact things I don't care about. I don't care about Harvard Law degrees or the dregs of youtube, arguments rise or fall on their own merits.

As for the third, as a collector who'd also love a legitimate, established marketplace for comics and games based on real demand, let me know when you find one.

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:08 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

I got married on 08/08/08 and still forget my anniversary. 

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 6:02 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Jobst makes his argument in the same medium (YouTube) that others use to declare that the Earth is flat. So he's already operating at a disadvantage. 

Abramson is a gamer with a law degree from Harvard. People can hate his politics and his gonzo style, but he's digging, quoting, and documenting.

Whether what he's finding is illegal or not remains to be seen. There are so many business practices that fall into a gray area of legality and are allowed to keep happening until enough people legally compel them to change. WATA juicing the marketplace and Halperin mega-shilling his own auctions--that stuff being dragged into the light of day, to me, is a good thing for collectors who want a legitimate marketplace, not one with massive price manipulation. 

 

How did wata “juice the marketplace”?   What does that mean?   If you’re referring to the Carolina collection , it has been noted already elsewhere that neither Dain nor Jeff were directors as the video claims.   Dain had already quit a full three years ago.   Jeff months before the transaction.   And to top it off, pedigree games have appeared to sell for no more or less than non pedigree.   
 

As for the allegation made by Wilson, we will see .   Obviously that would be improper .

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:08 PM, COI said:

As for the third, as a collector who'd also love a legitimate, established marketplace for comics and games based on real demand, let me know when you find one.

 

[comicwiz]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:55 PM, Bronty said:

As to any ripple effect, assuming there even was a splash that created a ripple, there are competing grading services and auction houses , are there not?    Vacuums get filled quickly.    More to the point though, let’s draw an analogy.    I am not a coin collector.    If coin collecting fell off a cliff tomorrow , would that change my collecting any?   Not an iota.     Assuming you are not a coin collector , I can’t imagine a coin implosion would effect you either.     

It's hard to really know, and I think it's all way too early to say how this will spread to other collecting categories. I do rely on one of the named parties to do comparable research when I'm appraising for others or for my own purchases. About half of my more recent purchases have been slabbed, but a lot of it is reliant on what's happening in the market. Strange coincidence that I had a fellow who contacted me wanting to appraise his video game collection, and we got on the subject of bubble valuations. He wasn't even aware of a lot of the things I raised concerns over, and now this. Sadly, a tornado ripped through Simcoe County not long after our conversation, and I don't even know if it had any impact on his collection. I do know he was buying in this market, so it would be awful if there was any peril loss, but worse if the prices adjust in a manner where he may not be adequately compensated based on how things will look in a month or even a year from now. It isn't only a question of whether I'll land on my feet, it's also about the ripple effect reaching people I know.

Edited August 27, 2021 by comicwiz

[Iconic1s]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:29 PM, Karl Liebl said:

I do not understand collecting and grading the throw away packaging on digital media. At least comic books are intended as art to begin with

True, and at least with comics they do page counts, ensure it is complete, check for restoration, etc.

Surely no person can question what another collects… I’m 100% a supporter of to each his own.

Having said that, theres a chance that the game inside doesn’t even work. With a comic you always have the choice to crack it open and enjoy the contents.  With a sealed game the only thing you really have for sure is a box and some shrink wrap.

To each his own though.

[Larryw7]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:57 PM, Karl Liebl said:

What was to be consumed by the kid?

The staples.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:11 PM, Bronty said:

How did wata “juice the marketplace”?  

A WATA founder (with others) bought your game for a record price, promoted it as evidence of a booming market, went on TV and posed as an ordinary collector, not disclosing he's actually a founder of the grading company that graded the game he's holding in his hand, has a discussion with the president of the the grading company he helped found, they pretend they don't know each other while talking about the million dollar value of the game. 

If you don't see it, I'm not sure I'll ever be able to explain it in terms you would accept. Though you sure seemed surprised.

 

 

[Karl Liebl]

On 8/27/2021 at 3:00 PM, Buzzetta said:

@comicwiz and @Bronty both have more experience with the nuances that I am going to try to explain so you guys feel free to jump in.  You two might disagree on a couple of the aspects or issues I raise but I *think* I can presently explain the basics somewhat clearly.  

Let's back off the idea of comics being art.  The original art is the art and comics are collected bound printed volumes of the art on paper.   Let's forget about comics all together because in reality, as far as I am concerned the only true graded collectable that does not interfere with the usability of the collectable is sports and gaming cards since you can flip it over and get the same experience and usability of the item regardless of whether or not it is graded. 

Grading a video game is really nothing more than grading the packaging it came in and assuming that the contents not only are there and work but that all factory issued paperwork is present.  This mentality toward collecting is very much related to MIB (Mint in Box) toy grading.  You assume that all of the contents contained in the sealed box are also mint and unbroken and were manufactured correctly.   The mentality is that to obtain a sealed box of a toy you are trying to have the most perfect representation of that sealed item as it came off the production floor. 

Now are there problems with this?  Absolutely.  Let's go back to Lego.  Check this listing out on eBay as it is the FMV going rate for this set at around $400.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/224369239367 Lego 10223, Kingdom's Joust is a representation of what everyone collects when they collect MIB samples of items and everything that can go wrong.  To continue this I am going to assume that you are all clicking the link to look at the pictures.  The year that this set arrived, Lego introduced a new plastic recipe for lack of a better word for their brown bricks.   The bricks were VERY brittle and broke easily with many of those parts finding themselves into this particular theme of sets.  I have two of them with both opened.  Lego actually addressed the problem and offered replacement parts.  Everyone learned of this problem within a couple of years.  The plastic dried out VERY quickly and would just snap.  Article LEGO Apologizes for Brittle, Reddish Brown Bricks – Assures Problem is Now Solved.

Now we have a question on that sealed $400 Lego set on eBay.  What are you buying when you buy that set?   I assure you that the set has those particular bricks in question that will snap.  Again, I know because I have two of the sets and have had to swap out the brown bricks.   Are you buying a presentation of the best model you could find off the shelf of your favorite toy?   Are you buying an actual Lego set to open and build?  If it is the second one, you can still contact Lego and they will help you out.  However, the value of the set has gone down once you open the package.

The same holds true with vintage SW Toys still sealed in the box, Transformers were not sold in window boxes, and most definitely the one thing I always tell people to stay away from, MIB GI Joe playsets which contain the most brittle plastic I have ever seen.  

With a video game you are not buying a graded and sealed game to play the same way you are not buying a graded and sealed comic to read.   It's supposed to sit on your shelf and look pretty.   However, yes, you do not know if the game will actually work just the same way that I can tell you that I have no idea if the $1,300 sealed Lego set I sold last month has problems with the brown bricks.    You won't know unless you crack it open and see.  But once you do that you no longer have a factory sealed sample of the best representation possible of the product. 

 

 

 

The stinky cheap newsprint of comics and it’s survivability make them rare and collectible. Is everything a collectible?  In a 1000 years maybe!  People bought video games for the game not the package.  Comic books are not the same. I just think it’s silly that video game packaging is worth millions. More than action comics 1 even!  More than any collectible perhaps!  I’ll sell you a vacuum cleaner catalog from 1952 for 400000. Deal?