Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION - A Must Watch! 18 18

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:01 PM, kav said:

Thats the old kobiyashi maru gambit-no matter what I say you say "nope".

That might be you projecting your tactics onto me. I don't have conversations that way, but hey, let's throw around one-sentence characterizations, because drive-by krepe-posts are so much easier.

Your post count makes a lot more sense to me now.

[Dreamtoreal1]

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:06 PM, COI said:

That might be you projecting your tactics onto me. I don't have conversations that way, but hey, let's throw around one-sentence characterizations, because drive-by krepe-posts are so much easier.

Your post count makes a lot more sense to me now.

Thats the old "I know you are but what am I?" gambit-

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:05 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

You're really, really, really grasping at anything to discredit what is a clear-cut conflict of interest. 

Pretend the Pawn Star thing didn't happen.

WATA still promoted this record breaking sale, sent out press releases saying the buyer was Joe Collector, this becomes huge news in the collecting world, sends prices surging, and they purposely hid he was a WATA founder. 

I'm on the board of an art museum. I can't buy a piece at a record price, pretend I'm just an unaffiliated collector, tell people in the national press that it's real value is 10x what I paid for it, and then sell it at the same museum. It's a conflict.

If you don't see it, you don't want to see it.

 

I guess I understand your POV but I wish people would remember that this group was not the only party ready to pay that price.    Somebody was paying six figures for it either way.  So, how was it a misrepresentation of value?   I don’t think it was.  

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:05 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

You're really, really, really grasping at anything to discredit what is a clear-cut conflict of interest. 

Pretend the Pawn Star thing didn't happen.

WATA still promoted this record breaking sale, sent out press releases saying the buyer was Joe Collector, this becomes huge news in the collecting world, sends prices surging, and they purposely hid he was a WATA founder. 

I'm on the board of an art museum. I can't buy a piece at a record price, pretend I'm just an unaffiliated collector, tell people in the national press that it's real value is 10x what I paid for it, and then sell it at the same museum. It's a conflict.

If you don't see it, you don't want to see it.

 

I absolutely see the conflict of interest. 

I absolutely think these are questions worth asking.

I've made these points many times already, and  have even credited Karl with asking good questions and raising good points.

Gathering information and asking questions takes work, interpreting the information is the really tough part. Nuance is hard, which is why it's easily waved away.

Edited August 27, 2021 by COI

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:08 PM, kav said:

Thats the old "I know you are but what am I?" gambit-

61,103.

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:12 PM, COI said:

61,103.

That's the old "You post a lot therefore I win" gambit-

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:10 PM, Bronty said:

I guess I understand your POV but I wish people would remember that this group was not the only party ready to pay that price.    Somebody was paying six figures for it either way.  So, how was it a misrepresentation of value?   I don’t think it was.  

This is the part I tried pointing out in one of my longer posts, but too many words I guess.

You can't just make a market with 2 or 3 record sales. Which is where I'd like to hear a coherent distinction between market manipulation and simply marketing.

[revat]

My opinion is that I think the video compelling enough to warrant an full investigation by a journalist (for sure) or  law enforcement (maybe if there's a specific criminal statute that can be pointed to, I'm no lawyer or police), and certainly if I'm a rich buyer of some of these expensive games I might consider suing to get some discovery action, and I personally am certainly happy to reserve my judgment (or not judge at all) until after said investigation.  

Until then, even if I bought graded video games I'd be very reticent.  If I sold them I'd try to cash out now, but not specifically sight past sales in my marketing.

[jaybuck43]

So there’s a question bouncing around my head that doesn’t make sense. 
 

In 2017 WATA for all intents and purposes does not exist. VGA is THE company to grade video games. 

Now in 2018 WATA embarks on a tour to various conventions around the country to advertise their services. I distinctly remember seeing them at NYCC 2018 and asking if they were going to offer an “excavation pedigree” for ET copies. Spoke to them about their product for a few minutes, wished them luck on their future endeavors and walked away. (As I said previously, while I have a large used video game collection, I’m not in the habit of grading them.) WATA came with several display games including Dan’s SMB. None of that was surprising, Borock did the same thing a few years prior when CBCS launched (set up a booth, showed off books in slabs, and hyped the new company.)

So now to my question. What was the arrangement to tour the SMB? I mean you’re talking about THE holy grail of video game collecting right? (Oldest known copy of the most popular NES game out there.) Already Dan had turned down $50,000 offers for it so he has an idea of the value. Heck when he wacked up the collection it came from he and his partner valued it at something like between $2-4,000 in 2012 way before the mini boom in video games in the mid 2010s. So he’s always believed it was a valuable item. But…. You just crack it out, have WATA repackage it, and hand it to them for 9 months or so to tour it all over the country with no guarantee of anything in return? I mean who’s covering the insurance? What happens if it gets damaged in transit? Or worse, lost? WATA is using it in their promotional materials. Did you get paid for publicity rights? For instance when IDW approaches OA owners about scanning their art for artist additions these are always things discussed right? How it gets there safely, whose responsible in case of damage, and of course rights to publicity since IDW is gonna sell all those beautiful books at $100+ a pop. So why help WATA promote their business? It might help increase the value of your individual game, sure, but most realistically all it’s going to do is attract people to submit their games to WATA, and they make their money off that, you don’t. In other words, all the risk, (mostly) none of the reward. 
 

Again, going back to my initial post, I’m looking at the smell test, and this just smells off. Someone lends a company a super valuable instrument to help gain the company notoriety ostensibly out of altruism, which tour then ends with Heritage signing an exclusive deal with said company, and a month later, boom said instrument just so happens to become the most valuable video game sale in history. To paraphrase the late Howard baker what did you know sir and when did you know it?

[COI]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:15 PM, kav said:

That's the old "You post a lot therefore I win" gambit-

This is the old "I post at the same rate that genital lice procreate to wear down my opponents" gambit. 

[kav]

On 8/27/2021 at 4:18 PM, COI said:

This is the old "I post at the same rate that genital lice procreate to wear down my opponents" gambit. 

Come on sharon said no schoolyard hijinx.

[MatterEaterLad]

On 8/27/2021 at 5:15 PM, COI said:

This is the part I tried pointing out in one of my longer posts, but too many words I guess.

You can't just make a market with 2 or 3 record sales. Which is where I'd like to hear a coherent distinction between market manipulation and simply marketing.

Grading companies should grade. They shouldn't be trying to establish new values.

And grading company founders shouldn't be posing as Joe Collector in the press talking about prices. That's not marketing, that's manipulation. They hid his WATA affiliation because it wasn't marketing. 

[jaybuck43]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:18 PM, jaybuck43 said:

So there’s a question bouncing around my head that doesn’t make sense. 
 

In 2017 WATA for all intents and purposes does not exist. VGA is THE company to grade video games. 

Now in 2018 WATA embarks on a tour to various conventions around the country to advertise their services. I distinctly remember seeing them at NYCC 2018 and asking if they were going to offer an “excavation pedigree” for ET copies. Spoke to them about their product for a few minutes, wished them luck on their future endeavors and walked away. (As I said previously, while I have a large used video game collection, I’m not in the habit of grading them.) WATA came with several display games including Dan’s SMB. None of that was surprising, Borock did the same thing a few years prior when CBCS launched (set up a booth, showed off books in slabs, and hyped the new company.)

So now to my question. What was the arrangement to tour the SMB? I mean you’re talking about THE holy grail of video game collecting right? (Oldest known copy of the most popular NES game out there.) Already Dan had turned down $50,000 offers for it so he has an idea of the value. Heck when he wacked up the collection it came from he and his partner valued it at something like between $2-4,000 in 2012 way before the mini boom in video games in the mid 2010s. So he’s always believed it was a valuable item. But…. You just crack it out, have WATA repackage it, and hand it to them for 9 months or so to tour it all over the country with no guarantee of anything in return? I mean who’s covering the insurance? What happens if it gets damaged in transit? Or worse, lost? WATA is using it in their promotional materials. Did you get paid for publicity rights? For instance when IDW approaches OA owners about scanning their art for artist additions these are always things discussed right? How it gets there safely, whose responsible in case of damage, and of course rights to publicity since IDW is gonna sell all those beautiful books at $100+ a pop. So why help WATA promote their business? It might help increase the value of your individual game, sure, but most realistically all it’s going to do is attract people to submit their games to WATA, and they make their money off that, you don’t. In other words, all the risk, (mostly) none of the reward. 
 

Again, going back to my initial post, I’m looking at the smell test, and this just smells off. Someone lends a company a super valuable instrument to help gain the company notoriety ostensibly out of altruism, which tour then ends with Heritage signing an exclusive deal with said company, and a month later, boom said instrument just so happens to become the most valuable video game sale in history, that was sold to the same group of people you just lent it to. To paraphrase the late Howard baker what did you know sir and when did you know it?

 

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:15 PM, COI said:

This is the part I tried pointing out in one of my longer posts, but too many words I guess.

You can't just make a market with 2 or 3 record sales. Which is where I'd like to hear a coherent distinction between market manipulation and simply marketing.

It’s been record after record after record.   Nonstop records, really.   And while some of the purchases have been speculative as far as I know, they’ve all been legitimate sales.   
 

I understand that from the point of view of the comic collector, seeing these price increases unfold in short order seems bizarre and as though it must be the result of shenanigans.    From my perspective watching the market, there are many, many times the collectors there were before, and the same number of games, and that is the ultimate driver of the price increases.      I think there must be 20 new collectors for every established one.    Apply that sort of collector increase to whatever niche of comic books you collect.   What do you think would happen to prices?    Many people were unsure of what they were buying, unsure where to buy and sell, unsure about authenticity , or just hadn’t even considered these as a collectible.     That’s changed and so have prices.    The October signature , I predict, will have prices just as crazy.    There simply aren’t anywhere near enough of these to go around.    There never have been, but the supply demand imbalance is now particularly acute. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bronty

[WolverineX]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:20 PM, kav said:

Come on sharon said no schoolyard hijinx.

Wow,  I've been missing out after my restoration thread and kang posts.  This is where the good stuff has been happening

[MatterEaterLad]

Gotta run and shill up my Heritage auctions. I bid as WATA Halperinski.

Have a great night guys. If Domo shows up, tell him to R-E-L-A-X...

[Bronty]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:18 PM, jaybuck43 said:

So there’s a question bouncing around my head that doesn’t make sense. 
 

In 2017 WATA for all intents and purposes does not exist. VGA is THE company to grade video games. 

Now in 2018 WATA embarks on a tour to various conventions around the country to advertise their services. I distinctly remember seeing them at NYCC 2018 and asking if they were going to offer an “excavation pedigree” for ET copies. Spoke to them about their product for a few minutes, wished them luck on their future endeavors and walked away. (As I said previously, while I have a large used video game collection, I’m not in the habit of grading them.) WATA came with several display games including Dan’s SMB. None of that was surprising, Borock did the same thing a few years prior when CBCS launched (set up a booth, showed off books in slabs, and hyped the new company.)

So now to my question. What was the arrangement to tour the SMB? I mean you’re talking about THE holy grail of video game collecting right? (Oldest known copy of the most popular NES game out there.) Already Dan had turned down $50,000 offers for it so he has an idea of the value. Heck when he wacked up the collection it came from he and his partner valued it at something like between $2-4,000 in 2012 way before the mini boom in video games in the mid 2010s. So he’s always believed it was a valuable item. But…. You just crack it out, have WATA repackage it, and hand it to them for 9 months or so to tour it all over the country with no guarantee of anything in return? I mean who’s covering the insurance? What happens if it gets damaged in transit? Or worse, lost? WATA is using it in their promotional materials. Did you get paid for publicity rights? For instance when IDW approaches OA owners about scanning their art for artist additions these are always things discussed right? How it gets there safely, whose responsible in case of damage, and of course rights to publicity since IDW is gonna sell all those beautiful books at $100+ a pop. So why help WATA promote their business? It might help increase the value of your individual game, sure, but most realistically all it’s going to do is attract people to submit their games to WATA, and they make their money off that, you don’t. In other words, all the risk, (mostly) none of the reward. 
 

Again, going back to my initial post, I’m looking at the smell test, and this just smells off. Someone lends a company a super valuable instrument to help gain the company notoriety ostensibly out of altruism, which tour then ends with Heritage signing an exclusive deal with said company, and a month later, boom said instrument just so happens to become the most valuable video game sale in history. To paraphrase the late Howard baker what did you know sir and when did you know it?

Simply lent to them, as did others with other notable games, to enable them to have some notable items for display.   The same way others have lent artwork to exhibits etc.   
 

A lot of the questions you ask - what if it gets damaged etc, frankly weren’t considered.   Maybe you think that’s crazy, but remember , I’m 90% art collector for a decade at that point.   Those questions would have been asked if I was lending cover art.    Lending a game?   Meh, just a game even if a really nice one. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Bronty

[WolverineX]

On 8/27/2021 at 7:26 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Gotta run and shill up my Heritage auctions. I bid as WATA Halperinski.

Have a great night guys. If Domo shows up, tell him to R-E-L-A-X...

List your own item and make sure cross 2 mil. There's no accountability anyway. 

[Stevemmg]

Have we ever seen anything from underbidders on these record sales pop up?  Ones that aren’t involved with any of these parties? It might have some effect on my opinion one way or the other. It takes at least two bidders to make these benchmark prices happen. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Stevemmg