Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 9:46 AM, THE_BEYONDER said: Really? Did I stutter? My point in using a drab example was to take the collector emotion out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE_BEYONDER Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 9:49 AM, Bronty said: Did I stutter? My point in using a drab example was to take the collector emotion out of it. It’s a terrible analogy. Not a drab example. Edited August 29, 2021 by THE_BEYONDER Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 9:51 AM, THE_BEYONDER said: It’s a terrible analogy. Not a drab example. You’re free to that opinion. I’ll throw you a bone though. Let’s say the consignor of the Promise Collection owns a logistics company which Steve Ivy owns 20% and Steve Borock owns 5% of. Due to those existing relationships, the consignor has decided to grade via CBCS and sell via HA, and HA has decided to award its logistics contract to the company controlled by the consignor. Heritage issues a press release. Is Heriatge required to disclose those relationships? I don’t think they are. Furthermore , keep in mind that their requirements are not based on our opinions. They are based on the law. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d be surprised if that was required disclosure for a private company. Remember , to my knowledge , heritage is not publicly listed. It would follow that they would be under much fewer disclosure requirements than a publicly listed company. Many times, to my understanding, they will be entirely free to communicate what they desire and omit what they desire, similar to the way that you are free to tell me what’s in your 401K, but I have no right to demand that information. Private individual. Private company. Same as comic link, comiconnect, you, I etc. Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyweaknesskryptonite Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 6:56 AM, LearnedHand said: Curious: do you see yourself as a comic book hobbyist/collector? Or a commodities gambler? You must not have seen some of the pictures he has posted of his comic room. He DEFINITELY is a comic book collector... jimjum12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LearnedHand Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 6:20 AM, Bronty said: Thank you. I understand that you’d give any such auction house your business, but from what I’ve seen whales (who disproportionately drive revenue - a single star lot can be a significant percentage of an overall auctions results ) disproportionately favor privacy. so, for that reason, I don’t think you’re ever going to get your wish. It would cost them more current business than it would generate new business, IMO. I am not commenting on the merits or veracity of the Youtube video in any sense here (or specifically to your post, Bronty). My post is purely to discuss, conceptually, the implications of the alleged comic book market manipulation. ~~~~~ The Youtube video is basically alleging the convergence between an auction house and slabbing company took a basement lower dollar hobby, without an established/serious ($$$) collector secondary market, and in three years took measures to artificially create this market. In terms of concerns voiced here that this same type of alleged market manipulation could be occurring in the comic book market, I think it would be more complicated to now manipulate the market; and a few such sales wouldn't necessarily move the needle significantly on a hobby basis. Comic books have had a robust and established secondary market since well before the auction and slabbing companies, and some higher end books have sold for Guide multiples since the 1970s - so there is a lot of data. Having said that ... ... if the concern is that comic market manipulation has been ongoing since the auction houses and slabbing companies came on the scene - this suggests that, on a hobby-wide basis, today's understanding of values is artificial. Why? Because the volume of slabbed books sold through the various (current and former) auction houses is staggering - and this is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of ripple effect. To do an apples-to-apples to the allegations in the Youtube video, we would need to look at the comic book hobby at the point where comic books were first slabbed and sold through auction houses - approximately 20 years ago. Reported hammer prices of slabbed books were setting incredible record highs. For those that remember back to that time, we're not just talking about the 9.8s or key books. That period reset the understanding of comic book values, and over the course of the ensuing 20 years - even if no further manipulation (under the hypothetical that manipulation occurred) had occurred - it has permeated into every aspect of valuation from today's hammer prices, to how dealers price their books, to the values you see in the Overstreet Price Guide. Whether or not the early 2000s were driven by commoditization and putting the book owner on equal resale footing with dealer or by market manipulation is well beyond the scope of my post. All I'm saying is IF we collectively believe there was market manipulation in the comic book hobby by the same dynamics as alleged in the Youtube video, we're already playing in a very corrupted framework. So unfortunately, proposed solutions are a great idea, but can only address some of the concerns over its continuation. WolverineX 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) I agree with most of that. Encapsulation and promotion on auction sites reset comic book values. So much so that it was possible early on to buy a book for 20 or 30 dollars at a show and encapsulate it and immediately resell it for 500 or 1000 dollars. I did that myself once or twice and I’m sure many others here did as well. Given that experience, why would we be surprised when the same thing occurs in another hobby? And that’s before even considering things like the vast increase in the money supply, covid effects etc that have thrown gas on the fire. as hard as it might be to wrap ones head around the explosion in values (and trust me I struggle with that every day), I think there are many reasons for it. - increased outreach to other collector bases resulting in massive amounts of new collectors - increased and easier to access hobby knowledge (people now can find out what they are buying) - increased profile from auction house listings - a price guide effect from past auction results - the newer collectors being younger collectors who get after it aggressively - increased money supply - covid collector boom - demographics (80/90s material is in general hot across all hobbies) - increased liquidity for buyers and sellers. - the long established extreme scarcity of quality material - the continued relevance and ubiquity of many of these franchises in pop culture. the list goes on and on and on. The market isn’t just hitting on all cylinders atm, it’s hitting on cylinders it didn’t even know it had. i don’t believe any of it is as a result of one reason. I think it’s red hot because ALL the reasons are pushing in the same direction. Up. Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted August 29, 2021 Author Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 9:58 AM, Bronty said: Due to those existing relationships, the consignor has decided to grade via CBCS and sell via HA, and HA has decided to award its logistics contract to the company controlled by the consignor. I spend an inordinate amount of time in the area of risk assessment examining such links closely. I can assure you the logistics company would be very closely examined by other companies in it's supply chain for any/all questionable activity. It's a catch 22 in this instance because disclosure may help the optics of the auction sale, but it may hinder and backfire if a potential company looking into doing business with the logistics company picks up on any chatter revealing transgression or wrongdoing. As imperfect as some of the rating systems are on anti-money laundering activities (usually pinpointed by shell companies in countries seen as safe havens), the involvement of the people in the company would be an immediate red flag for anyone worth their salt in the risk monitoring and analysis industry, and would certainly make any interested party want to look at everything under very close scrutiny and magnification. The analogy, where there's smoke, there's fire, would apply here. The stakes of overlooking these ties has a negative trickle effect, from shareholders/stakeholders, right down to advocacy and anarchist groups who are all too quick to targeting companies who haven't done their due diligence, and have gotten into bed with people they deem a threat to everything they stand for. The world has become a very different place from the time a 13 year old kid committed mail fraud to the tune of $100K, and ignoring these risks is a blindspot to any business in a competitive marketplace. Edited August 29, 2021 by comicwiz THE_BEYONDER 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 10:45 AM, comicwiz said: I spend an inordinate amount of time in the area of risk assessment examining such links closely. I can assure you the logistics company would be very closely examined by other companies in it's supply chain for any/all questionable activity. It's a catch 22 in this instance because disclosure may help the optics of the auction sale, but it may hinder and backfire if a potential company looking into doing business with the logistics company picks up on any chatter revealing transgression or wrongdoing. As imperfect as some of the rating systems are on anti-money laundering activities (usually pinpointed by shell companies in countries seen as safe havens), the involvement of the people in the company would be an immediate red flag for anyone worth their salt in the risk monitoring and analysis industry, and would certainly make any interested party want to look at everything under very close scrutiny and magnification. The analogy, where there's smoke, there's fire, would apply here. The stakes of overlooking these ties has a negative trickle effect, from shareholders/stakeholders, right down to advocacy and anarchist groups who are all too quick to targeting companies who haven't done their due diligence, and have gotten into bed with people they deem a threat to everything they stand for. The world has become a very different place from the time a 13 year old kid committed mail fraud to the tune of $100K, and ignoring these risks is a blindspot to any business in a competitive marketplace. Are you a lawyer Joe? The question you answered isn’t the question I asked. I asked whether that company would be required to disclose those relationships. it’s great that you “examine” things, and it’s business partners’ rights to do so, but is the business required to disclose. I would be surprised if it was. Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted August 29, 2021 Author Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 10:52 AM, Bronty said: Are you a lawyer Joe? The question you answered isn’t the question I asked. I asked whether that company would be required to disclose those relationships. it’s great that you “examine” things, and it’s business partners’ rights to do so, but is the business required to disclose. I would be surprised if it was. What I do isn't really pertinent to the point I raised, what is pertinent however is any perception that strains the trust any bidder might have on items they may be interested in bidding on. A disclosure requirement for auction companies to disclose it bids on it's own auctions is one example, however in some cases where conduct and transparency issues arise at an event auction (Mound City Auctions comes to mind) there may be a requirement for auction companies to clear any concern it isn't bidding to inflate, but because people in it's organization are bidding and competing to acquire the piece for themselves. In the decision to go with a grading company where there is a relational tie to the consignor, it would similarly be important to allay potential concerns bidders may have over preferential treatment to have factored into the grading of that persons collection. All it takes is one suspect grade to be questioned openly for collectors to get cold feet. Seems like a fairly straightforward things for an auction company to anticipate such concerns, particularly if their goal is to get as much for the consignors collection as possible. Clearing the air in such a situation is never a bad idea. Edited August 29, 2021 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manetteska Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/28/2021 at 10:23 PM, Bronty said: I’ve always understood it to be really difficult to obtain the same type insurance on collectibles that someone like you might take for granted, outside of the US . So, I can see why you might think that no one mails things uninsured , but that’s not reality. Postal insurance in some countries is both limited in scope and based on cost to the seller instead of FMV. That’s not very useful when an item has appreciated in value, and it seems to result in an increased incidence of package inspection. I’d say the #1 source of damage to collectibles on international shipments is the careless customs agent. This discussion devolved into specifics about mailing but the question is about a company already having your item and traveling around internationally with it. Not only about potential damage/loss but the “free” publicity to show off something which is not theirs to further their business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 11:11 AM, manetteska said: This discussion devolved into specifics about mailing but the question is about a company already having your item and traveling around internationally with it. Not only about potential damage/loss but the “free” publicity to show off something which is not theirs to further their business. Then you’ll have to clarify the question. It’s not at all clear to me what you’re asking. Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 11:58 PM, Bronty said: You’re free to that opinion. I’ll throw you a bone though. Let’s say the consignor of the Promise Collection owns a logistics company which Steve Ivy owns 20% and Steve Borock owns 5% of. Due to those existing relationships, the consignor has decided to grade via CBCS and sell via HA, and HA has decided to award its logistics contract to the company controlled by the consignor. Heritage issues a press release. Is Heriatge required to disclose those relationships? I don’t think they are. Furthermore , keep in mind that their requirements are not based on our opinions. They are based on the law. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d be surprised if that was required disclosure for a private company. Remember , to my knowledge , heritage is not publicly listed. It would follow that they would be under much fewer disclosure requirements than a publicly listed company. Many times, to my understanding, they will be entirely free to communicate what they desire and omit what they desire, similar to the way that you are free to tell me what’s in your 401K, but I have no right to demand that information. Private individual. Private company. Same as comic link, comiconnect, you, I etc. I hate that name with a passion, 'The Promise Collection'. Do all the other Care Bears get their own Graded Collections too? I'm looking forward to when we get down to The Wuzzles. jcjames, MetalPSI , Larryw7 and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronty Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 (edited) On 8/29/2021 at 11:07 AM, comicwiz said: What I do isn't really pertinent to the point I raised, what is pertinent however is any perception that strains the trust any bidder might have on items they may be interested in bidding on. A disclosure requirement for auction companies to disclose it bids on it's own auctions is one example, however in some cases where conduct and transparency issues arise at an event auction (Mound City Auctions comes to mind) there may be a requirement for auction companies to clear any concern it isn't bidding to inflate, but because people in it's organization are bidding and competing to acquire the piece for themselves. In the decision to go with a grading company where there is a relational tie to the consignor, it would similarly be important to allay potential concerns bidders may have over preferential treatment to have factored into the grading of that persons collection. All it takes is one suspect grade to be questioned openly for collectors to get cold feet. Seems like a fairly straightforward things for an auction company to anticipate such concerns, particularly if their goal is to get as much for the consignors collection as possible. Clearing the air in such a situation is never a bad idea. I think the idea that one suspect grade could give collecting community cold feet is demonstrably unlikely to the point where the probability of that occurring is vanishingly small. After all of the pressing and micro trimming and other scandals, has any of that ever slowed the collecting train down.? Those gears keep grinding . Edited August 29, 2021 by Bronty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MetalPSI Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 9:52 AM, Mecha_Fantastic said: I hate that name with a passion, 'The Promise Collection'. Do all the other Care Bears get their own Graded Collections too? I'm looking forward to when we get down to The Wuzzles. Tribbles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 11:58 AM, Dr. Dank said: Tribbles Don't be an ediot! There's Trouble with Tribbles! MetalPSI 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimjum12 Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 10:41 AM, Bronty said: I agree with most of that. Encapsulation and promotion on auction sites reset comic book values. So much so that it was possible early on to buy a book for 20 or 30 dollars at a show and encapsulate it and immediately resell it for 500 or 1000 dollars. I did that myself once or twice and I’m sure many others here did as well. Given that experience, why would we be surprised when the same thing occurs in another hobby? And that’s before even considering things like the vast increase in the money supply, covid effects etc that have thrown gas on the fire. as hard as it might be to wrap ones head around the explosion in values (and trust me I struggle with that every day), I think there are many reasons for it. - increased outreach to other collector bases resulting in massive amounts of new collectors - increased and easier to access hobby knowledge (people now can find out what they are buying) - increased profile from auction house listings - a price guide effect from past auction results - the newer collectors being younger collectors who get after it aggressively - increased money supply - covid collector boom - demographics (80/90s material is in general hot across all hobbies) - increased liquidity for buyers and sellers. - the long established extreme scarcity of quality material - the continued relevance and ubiquity of many of these franchises in pop culture. the list goes on and on and on. The market isn’t just hitting on all cylinders atm, it’s hitting on cylinders it didn’t even know it had. i don’t believe any of it is as a result of one reason. I think it’s red hot because ALL the reasons are pushing in the same direction. Up. Even if your friends helped to push it into the limelight, as long as people are having FUN ... that's what this is all about. Collectibles are for people to enjoy. I remember when my pal first pushed me off the high dive... I wanted to kill him on the way down, but couldn't thank him enough on the way out. GOD BLESS... -jimbo(a friend of jesus) Mystafo, Transplant, kav and 1 other 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 jimjum12 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyweaknesskryptonite Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 On 8/29/2021 at 10:52 AM, Mecha_Fantastic said: The Wuzzles According to the video that's who has been hosting the auctions On 8/29/2021 at 10:58 AM, Dr. Dank said: Tribbles This is what happens when some go to resell those overgraded books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyweaknesskryptonite Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 Oh wait... That was weasels and trouble.. Nevermind.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted August 29, 2021 Share Posted August 29, 2021 So it took a rare and iconic comic book like Action 1 decades and decades to hit $1 million But a video game jumps from $10k to $2 million in just three short years. That gives me pause. Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
