SUPERMAN #1 7.0 Blue THIRD highest graded copy coming to auction at CC 4 4

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

On 10/23/2021 at 11:11 PM, N e r V said:

I’m curious on re-subs for sure since I’m not sure how many are double listed now. If I’m correct unless you notify CGC that a book was broken out of its case and re-submitted they have no way of cleaning things up so how many people actually do that? Yes, I haven’t usually agreed with “existing numbers” some have posted here but I can only add to some verified numbers. There’s a lot of books I have no idea where they are at these days from the past. I’m guessing still locked up somewhere. I can say that 8.0 are not the best existing copies of Supes #1. The CGC books have one thing in common. They are the copies people are interested in selling. Not everyone is of such mindsets…

 

Exactly; while I wish I had bought these uber - dollar books in the seventies I picked up a lot of original owner or very high grade copies of other books that still sit in my comic closet for my enjoyment and will never see a slab unless I ever decide to sell or my kids are selling after I'm gone. There were hundreds of us at shows back then and granted not everyone was buying Golden Age but it was everywhere and cheap!

[Yellow Kid]

The best time I remember going into the vault at Collectors Bookstore was when the left side bookcases were full of nice comics.  I think they had two copies of Superman #1 but what really got my attention were the 12 copies of Batman #1.and these were all nice copies.  If I hadn't been a poor graduate student, I would have bought them all.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 10/24/2021 at 10:11 PM, szav said:

Not everyone thinks like I do I know, but if I was playing the CPR game with expensive, relatively rare or rare in high grade GA books, I would see it as in my own interest to send in the old label after a CPR upgrade so that my book seems more scarce, or that I'm not artificially making it appear less scarce than it is.

I would expect on the older and rarer GA books, especially in higher grade that we're not seeing a ton of dupes on the census.  Just a guess though.

@Gotham Kidsomehow hunts down the pre-robin tec dupes and keeps the census close to accurate, at least on this narrow range of books. I don’t think the census would be as accurate without his intervention 

szav, what you say makes sense, but I don’t think the people who initially engaged in book mechanics wanted CGC to know. But I speak of history. Now, it’s maybe different 

[N e r V]

On 10/24/2021 at 8:33 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

@Gotham Kidsomehow hunts down the pre-robin tec dupes and keeps the census close to accurate, at least on this narrow range of books. I don’t think the census would be as accurate without his intervention 

szav, what you say makes sense, but I don’t think the people who initially engaged in book mechanics wanted CGC to know. But I speak of history. Now, it’s maybe different 

Yeah, it’s crickets when people mention an 8.0 key that magically turns into a 9.2 or whatever. It’s not information a seller wants out there.

No love for the boy blunder from Gotham Kid? Well I guess Elvis didn’t have a sidekick so why should he (groans as I lift my suitcase of pre-Robin Tec’s across the floor). 

Pressing and what not is so common on the high keys I just wonder how much “fluff” is in there? 5%? 10%? 25%? People talk about some books going in 3-4 times now. Are most re-subs done with taking out original listings or do most people not bother?

[chrisco37]

Metro had the Supes 1 at Baltimore this weekend.  It was a pretty, pretty book.   They also had a Cap 1 7.0 (maybe the same one in the pic above?).  It was nice too, but colors were a bit dull on it, IMO.  The Supes was the better looking book.  

[chrisco37]

Here's an upclose pic of the book from a goof IG post I made.  

[rob_react]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:11 PM, szav said:

Not everyone thinks like I do I know, but if I was playing the CPR game with expensive, relatively rare or rare in high grade GA books, I would see it as in my own interest to send in the old label after a CPR upgrade so that my book seems more scarce, or that I'm not artificially making it appear less scarce than it is.

I would expect on the older and rarer GA books, especially in higher grade that we're not seeing a ton of dupes on the census.  Just a guess though.

This is my feeling. It doesn't help the hype to crowd the census with dupes at any level, not just mega high grade books. The only time it made any sense was when there was a lot of negative heat associated with pressing (back when every thread in comics general was a 5 star flame war about it)  and you'd want to hide the fact that a book was pressed to avoid blowback. Now, people just assume that they're pressed! Hiding an upgrade by crowding the census is silly. I'm sure people do it, but it's not helping them in any way. 

[N e r V]

On 10/25/2021 at 7:30 AM, rob_react said:

This is my feeling. It doesn't help the hype to crowd the census with dupes at any level, not just mega high grade books. The only time it made any sense was when there was a lot of negative heat associated with pressing (back when every thread in comics general was a 5 star flame war about it)  and you'd want to hide the fact that a book was pressed to avoid blowback. Now, people just assume that they're pressed! Hiding an upgrade by crowding the census is silly. I'm sure people do it, but it's not helping them in any way. 

In your opinion if two Detective comics #27 show up at auction as CGC 8.0’s and one is known to have been pressed and the other is known not to be, we’ll say PQ is equal on both and appearances look roughly the same, what would be a rough price difference between the two if that knowledge was out there prior to auction?
 

 

[rob_react]

On 10/24/2021 at 11:33 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

@Gotham Kidsomehow hunts down the pre-robin tec dupes and keeps the census close to accurate, at least on this narrow range of books. I don’t think the census would be as accurate without his intervention 

szav, what you say makes sense, but I don’t think the people who initially engaged in book mechanics wanted CGC to know. But I speak of history. Now, it’s maybe different 

They definitely didn't want it known, back in the day. Now it's not as much of an issue

[rob_react]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:05 AM, N e r V said:

In your opinion if two Detective comics #27 show up at auction as CGC 8.0’s and one is known to have been pressed and the other is known not to be, we’ll say PQ is equal on both and appearances look roughly the same, what would be a rough price difference between the two if that knowledge was out there prior to auction?
 

 

Interesting thought experiment. I think the better looking book would sell for more regardless of history. If they were somehow exact twins, and one of the big fish involved in the bidding had an aversion to pressing then obviously the pressed book would sell for less because that hypothetical buyer would bow out.

I don't think the results we see indicate mass flight away from pressed books, though. Even at the highest level. Two of the $3,000,0000 sales were known upgraded books, including the current record holder which exceeded the expectations of many folks here (the surprise was strongly on the up side.) Several other $1,000,000 sales were known upgrades. Everyone knows that every big book at every auction house is examined for possible upgrade. The people who left the hobby or stopped buying high grade books because of pressing have been replaced by people who accept pressing as part of the hobby.  

I still see blowback from people in comments or whatever (someone was annoyed that I sad the Batman #1 was freshly graded when it was also upgraded) but it's nothing like it was when pressing bubbled up to the surface. 

[jimjum12]

On 10/25/2021 at 10:30 AM, rob_react said:

This is my feeling. It doesn't help the hype to crowd the census with dupes at any level, not just mega high grade books. The only time it made any sense was when there was a lot of negative heat associated with pressing (back when every thread in comics general was a 5 star flame war about it)  and you'd want to hide the fact that a book was pressed to avoid blowback. Now, people just assume that they're pressed! Hiding an upgrade by crowding the census is silly. I'm sure people do it, but it's not helping them in any way. 

If the census "suggests" that a book is more common than believed, the price may be affected with a downward push. This scenario is absolutely favorable to anyone seeking multiple copies, i.e. Dealers. The appearance of increasing availability may also convince owners to sell while the selling is good. This is also a desirable factor to dealers and auction houses. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited October 25, 2021 by jimjum12

[N e r V]

On 10/25/2021 at 8:34 AM, rob_react said:

Interesting thought experiment. I think the better looking book would sell for more regardless of history. If they were somehow exact twins, and one of the big fish involved in the bidding had an aversion to pressing then obviously the pressed book would sell for less because that hypothetical buyer would bow out.

I don't think the results we see indicate mass flight away from pressed books, though. Even at the highest level. Two of the $3,000,0000 sales were known upgraded books, including the current record holder which exceeded the expectations of many folks here (the surprise was strongly on the up side.) Several other $1,000,000 sales were known upgrades. Everyone knows that every big book at every auction house is examined for possible upgrade. The people who left the hobby or stopped buying high grade books because of pressing have been replaced by people who accept pressing as part of the hobby.  

I still see blowback from people in comments or whatever (someone was annoyed that I sad the Batman #1 was freshly graded when it was also upgraded) but it's nothing like it was when pressing bubbled up to the surface. 

I agree with all that so I wasn’t looking for someone who carded about pressing but curious what you think the premium might be for an unpressed book. Much like white pages usually carry a premium over cream to off white might.

So if all things being mostly equal with 2 books but an unpressed 8.0 could theoretically make it to 8.5, 9.0 or even 9.2 what’s that percentage look like at auction? In other words in your opinion what’s a buyer likely to pony up to gamble on a possible upgrade status? 10%? 20%?

[chrisco37]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:48 AM, N e r V said:

I agree with all that so I wasn’t looking for someone who carded about pressing but curious what you think the premium might be for an unpressed book. Much like white pages usually carry a premium over cream to off white might.

So if all things being mostly equal with 2 books but an unpressed 8.0 could theoretically make it to 8.5, 9.0 or even 9.2 what’s that percentage look like at auction? In other words in your opinion what’s a buyer likely to pony up to gamble on a possible upgrade status? 10%? 20%?

You have to be 100% sure the book would upgrade to risk it.  The cost to regrade one of those behemoth books is now in the 5-figures.  Of course, the reward is much larger.  But, even the super rich playing at this end wouldn't want to drop 30K (assuming 1MM book value) for a regrade where they weren't totally sure it would bump.  And, how much would pressing a book like that cost?  I'm sure there's a sliding scale on that as well.    

[rob_react]

I woudn't happen now, since pressing is part of the process, but the Mastronet copy of Detective #27 is the exact book to play the thought experiment out with. I've looked at that book in the catalog and blown up scans  and it appears nicer than the stated grade and the grader's notes indicate non-breaking "finger bends" from handling the book which are pressable as all get-out. Is a 15-20% premium possible in that case? My gut says, yeah, but... that's a lot money gamble on the chance of doubling or tripling your money. And even then you'd have to have two people looking beyond the book living in their safe to push it up that much. 

[rob_react]

If you play out the experiment and apply your results to another real book you might end up with the most valuable CGC Graded book- The Detective Comics 27 CGC 9.2 (which is potentially the Mastro copy in a new holder) . I reckon that would be an increase of about  2-2.5x

[Mmehdy]

On 10/25/2021 at 7:00 AM, chrisco37 said:

Here's an upclose pic of the book from a goof IG post I made.  

glad to here it was not just some computer enhancement, it looks every bit a 7.0....

[batman_fan]

On 10/25/2021 at 11:26 AM, rob_react said:

I woudn't happen now, since pressing is part of the process, but the Mastronet copy of Detective #27 is the exact book to play the thought experiment out with. I've looked at that book in the catalog and blown up scans  and it appears nicer than the stated grade and the grader's notes indicate non-breaking "finger bends" from handling the book which are pressable as all get-out. Is a 15-20% premium possible in that case? My gut says, yeah, but... that's a lot money gamble on the chance of doubling or tripling your money. And even then you'd have to have two people looking beyond the book living in their safe to push it up that much. 

I agree.  If someone can inspect the book to see if there are pressable defect I would think even higher than the 15-20%

[Gotham Kid]

On 10/25/2021 at 4:33 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

@Gotham Kidsomehow hunts down the pre-robin tec dupes and keeps the census close to accurate, at least on this narrow range of books. I don’t think the census would be as accurate without his intervention 

CGC will not correct the census anymore (unless label handed in) even if irrefutable evidence is presented that multiple labels for the same book are active.

I have stopped presenting cases.

Dumb.

Edited October 27, 2021 by Gotham Kid

[lou_fine]

On 10/25/2021 at 9:01 AM, chrisco37 said:

On 10/25/2021 at 8:48 AM, N e r V said:

So if all things being mostly equal with 2 books but an unpressed 8.0 could theoretically make it to 8.5, 9.0 or even 9.2 what’s that percentage look like at auction? In other words in your opinion what’s a buyer likely to pony up to gamble on a possible upgrade status? 10%? 20%?

You have to be 100% sure the book would upgrade to risk it.  The cost to regrade one of those behemoth books is now in the 5-figures. 

Doesn't CGC have something like a pre-screen service for a minimum condition grade level which you can specify (in this particular case, you would specify a minimum grade of CGC 8.5) which would then substantially reduce your risk here?    

Edited October 27, 2021 by lou_fine

[chrisco37]

I guess you could do that, but to prescreen it, you’ll have to deslab it.  
You also have to have a minimum number of books (25?) for prescreen.  
I guess you send in a bunch of beaters with it.  If it upgrades great, you’re Golden.  If not, you haven’t shelled out a bunch of money in slabbing costs, but you don’t have graded Supes 1 anymore.