THE MARVELS starring Brie Larson, Iman Vellani and Teyonna Parris (2023) 9 9

[Broke as a Joke]

I'm awaiting Silvermanes review of this movie. I'm sure it will be enlightening.

[namisgr]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:54 PM, fantastic_four said:

But that term gets thrown at men who mostly just have a bias towards men, and it's irritating.

What makes that bias not ingrained, do you believe?  Something ingrained is believed, firmly fixed, and difficult to change.  Seems to fit a significant number (but not all) of negative viewpoints expressed in this thread and the one about the Barbie movie.

[fantastic_four]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:16 PM, paqart said:

A problem with doing this now is that "Marvel's best creatives" aren't the same people they were fifteen years ago. If they could go back to the mid-eighties, about as far as they can go with living creatives, you'd get a better result than what they have now. That, or work with people who've gone independent or left comics.

Any long-term creative committee would have to replace its members as time went on.  I think Bendis was on Perlmutter's committee, and obviously he would have had to be replaced after he left Marvel.

Ideally the committee would try hard to maintain consistency with previous iterations of the committee.  This is essentially the same role Marvel's Editor-In-Chief filled, except Perlmutter gave it to a group of people instead of just one.  Maybe it was the fact that it was a committee that was the problem, and instead it should just be one person like Feige has been, not sure.  Although I'm sure Feige also relies heavily on his inner circle he works with.  I'm not really sure how much of the continuity content comes from him and how much of it comes from his assistants...I can't even remember their names right now, although I've seen them several times over the years.

[VintageComics]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:58 PM, namisgr said:

What makes that bias not ingrained, do you believe?  Something ingrained is believed, firmly fixed, and difficult to change.  Seems to fit a significant number (but not all) of negative viewpoints expressed in this thread and the one about the Barbie movie.

Because the world "misogyny" implies intent. 

The word is conflated to mean that society is doing it with intent when in fact there are clear biological and psychological reasons for why these things happen and there is no intent. Intent is wholly removed from the conversation.

Let's look at this another way: When women WANT their men to be their leaders, are those women misogynistic to themselves? 

Let me guess, they need to be retrained. 

THAT'S where this conversation is leading. Women don't know what they want and need to relearn. That sounds EXACTLY what the communists told my family before they escaped. Like, who the heck is pushing for this, then?  

The media, WHICH EVERYONE can now more or less agree is wholly corrupt is spewing one thing.

People on the street say an entirely different thing.

I personally speak to 1000s of TOTAL STRANGERS in the general population around the world about this every year. I can even start recording these conversation if people want and post them.

Which do you trust more at this point? The media or the general population?

The ONLY negativity is coming from the media and those that stand by it. 

The word everyone means doesn't mean misogyny. You're going to need to pick another word that doesn't imply intent. 

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:45 PM, fantastic_four said:

Iger has been spreading him too thinly.  When he tried to get Feige to go in and clean up Kennedy's mess with Star Wars I immediately facepalmed--WHAT?  Leave this guy to keep creating magic with Marvel, dude!    He's done what nobody else has ever done and you want to put MORE on his plate?  

The biggest example of this was giving him control of both the comics AND the television shows--he's never done either one!  And it's the shows that he's struggled the most on.  They're all average, maybe slightly above average, at best, whereas when all he had to work on were the films he had been producing for almost his entire adult life he created the largest, most cohesive set of superhero films ever made with the Infinity Saga.

This dovetails perfectly into everything I've said in this thread. 

Outside corporate pressure and the push to continue to increase revenue to satiate investors against a hard limit (time only goes in one direction) has put too much pressure on the creative forces, causing them to dilute the artform. 

They need to back off to grow bigger. Pushing harder will splinter them as it does in everything. 

BOOM. 

[paqart]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:53 AM, VintageComics said:

Openly calling people out for disliking females in lead roles is intentionally offensive and abrasive when in fact, many of us have already clearly suggested MANY movies we've loved, where powerful females were the leads. 

It's not that anyone dislikes a female lead, it's that by forcing people into roles the very people they are trying to elevate are being patronized and demeaned. By forcing observers to accept them. And to be more specific, I don't even think that's the case in this movie (I can't comment for sure because I haven't seen it), although it is pretty weird that every movie, show or television commercial now has to have an unnatural, cookie cutter, spread of minorities in every scene. It doesn't even happen like that in real life.  

Forcing minorities into roles JUST SO EVERYONE CAN BE REPRESENTED is like forcing people to like something. It'll have the opposite effect and they will start to hate it. It's parenting 101.

By trying to stop the discussion, you escalate a lack of understanding and in turn escalate tension.  The best way to integrate culture and underrepresented minorities is to openly discuss the topic and bring awareness around it. This is unequivocally proven through scientific and psychological literature. If anyone wants to see it, I can provide it. 

You want to make a show or a movie that appeals to women? Do it. Make it ALL about women. I thought the movie "What women want" with Mel Gibson and Helen Hunt was a funny and good flick, because it had great insights into how women think but it did it without being offensive. It got the point across elegantly.

But forcing views is not only counterproductive, it's dangerous. 

Just to pile on a bit here: Forcing anything invites resistance.

In Endgame, when Captain Marvel grabs Thor's hammer, he says, "I like this one." I have always interpreted that line as an attempt by the producers to tell the audience that they are supposed to like Captain Marvel. It reminded me of those occasions when, as a child, certain adults would try to make me be friends with someone I didn't want to be friends with. It wouldn't surprise me if the kid on the other end of those introductions felt the same way.

This isn't much different from when my wife tries to make me take vitamins or when religious family members force their kids to go to church. There isn't anything wrong with (most) vitamins or churches, but people don't like being told what to do. The latest incarnation of the MCU appears to have decided that it knows better than the audience. They know what we should like, and is giving us that, a steady diet of the movie version of liver. They think we'll go along with it because we have given them the authority to decide what is best for us by supporting their earlier movies. I have nothing against the idea of other people eating nothing but liver, but I'm not interested.

Unfortunately for Disney, this attempt to force their taste on everyone else is backfiring. Not just because they don't like the fare, but because it is repellent. That is why they don't get to keep the existing audience as they add to it. Sticking to the food analogy, let's say you have a string of popular steak houses and decide to add a vegan menu to appeal to vegans. That might work, because non-vegans aren't repulsed by vegan food. They just want meat in their diet also. If you have a string of popular vegan restaurants who decide to add small amounts of meat to their dishes to appeal to non-vegans and expand their customer list, they're going to lose all the vegans. This is because vegans are repulsed by the meat added to their food, which is no longer vegan.

Many things can be forgiven in a film as long as it retains the essence of what makes it interesting in the first place. In my case, a time travel movie has to be really bad for me to not like it because I'll forgive almost anything in a time travel movie. Oddly enough, this is not true of superhero movies. I thought it was true, because I kept going to every MCU movie as if every fault was invisible, for the same reasons I ignored flaws in time travel movies. Looking back on it, I see now that this wasn't the reason.

Up until Iron Man, I didn't like superhero movies. After Civil War, I became suspicious of superhero movies. I haven't enjoyed more than half of the releases since then. What happened? Why did I start liking them, and why did I stop? It had nothing to do with superheroes or an interest in the genre.

Prior to Iron Man, every superhero movie I'd seen, including movies I worked on (Spider-Man, X-Men 2, and Daredevil) had very little going for them beyond the superhero license. I didn't like them for the same reason I didn't like movie adaptations in comic book or book firm. In those cases, as with Star Wars, the movie was the original, and everything else was a pale imitation. Iron Man changed that. For the first time in my experience, the licensed material was more than the original. Robert Downey Jr.'s Iron Man had standalone cinematic merit.

I continued watching MCU movies, hoping they would continue making films that stood on their own, apart from and in many ways richer than the comics. They succeeded over and over again. This is why those movies were so popular. They were good movies. The characters, situations, and themes were interesting independent of the source material. This is why they appealed to an audience that was much larger than the number of active comic book buyers. 

And then, Disney happened. Disney made two mistakes (mistakes they also made with Pixar, and to a lesser extent with Star Wars). They went back to treating MCU movies as a stable of licensed characters, as opposed to a universe filled with interesting people, and they decided to slip a little iodine into the brew, in the form of their pet causes. Marvel characters are not enough to make a popular movie. That much was proven with all the pre-MCU movies. Thinking the licensed properties alone will keep the fans in the theaters is like assuming that a tree painted by Van Gogh will inspire every other artist in the same way, to keep museums packed with visitors who want to see images of that tree. Guess what? They don't care about the tree. They want to see how Van Gogh painted it.

This is analogous to assistant editor's month at Marvel, or fill-in issues. With rare exceptions, these are both reasons to groan because we accidentally bought something we didn't want and know we won't enjoy. Not only that, the value of those issues in the price guides is always lower than everything on either side of the issue range.

Let's not forget the iodine. Some things can be tossed into a movie without noticeably affecting quality. For instance, brand placement. Sometimes it stands out as ridiculous, like the Apple computer used to defeat the aliens in Independence Day. More often, we don't notice it. Sometimes, it adds to the film, like the fancy cars driven by James Bond or Tony Stark. Product placement does exist in MCU films, and it is no better or worse than in any other film. They also have ideology placement, and this is the poison that kills the ride for me.

When I go to a film, one of the things I am hoping to accomplish is to leave the real world behind for a couple of hours. Even if it is a true story about the real world, like Marie, Erin Brockovich, or Schindler's List, it isn't my real world. In my real world, I am thinking about whether I had my vitamins, whether I'll get my latest project done on time, and whether I want to cancel my next dentist appointment. That's the stuff I want to leave behind. As part of that, there are real world irritants that I don't want to think about unless the irritant is somehow chastised. For instance, a bully who pesters every kid on the block has a spaceship land on him. That would be fine. If instead, he is the hero of the film because of his bullying, and he is never upbraided for his bad manners, then I will not enjoy the film no matter its other qualities.

Disney's introduction of their pet causes into the MCU has had the effect of polluting the films with noxious odors. Some might like these additions. I hate the smell of all things related to chickens. Other people love the smell of chickens and eggs. I won't eat if someone is eating either of those foods near me because the smell is so revolting to me. My reaction to chicken is not mainstream. It isn't even close. The sellers of chicken parts have nothing to worry about from me. However, what if I took over the biggest chicken processing plant in the country and turned it into an artificial chicken-like vegan "chicken" product? Would I get new customers? Probably. Would I lose more than I gained, probably. That is what Disney did.

The tragedy is that the MCU was really wonderful for awhile. If it hadn't been, the current malaise wouldn't be noticed because no one would care.

[VintageComics]

On 11/11/2023 at 2:25 PM, paqart said:

Sometimes it stands out as ridiculous, like the Apple computer used to defeat the aliens in Independence Day.

I remember when I noticed Audi appearing in every film and I was like, whaaaaaaaa? 

The reason it jumped out at me was (again) different than the reason everyone else would have noticed. 

Everyone else would have noticed because Audi is considered a cool car, but ANYBODY who knew anything about Audi 20 years ago would know they were horrid cars. I owned several in the 90's and they were known as 'the poor man's' Mercedes. 

I was well versed in them because VW/Audi/Porsche were my specialty. 

So when I started seeing them in the movies I was like "Eek, who wants one of those?" but they seemed to have done really well with their marketing and they've really built up their brand and reliability. So that was a very interesting evolution to watch for me. Most never even noticed it. 

[VintageComics]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:55 PM, Broke as a Joke said:

I'm awaiting Silvermanes review of this movie. I'm sure it will be enlightening.

I'm going to assume you're talking about me and want to point out that I am very thrilled that you didn't call me Greymane. 

If it wasn't about me, then I wish it was. 

[fantastic_four]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:58 PM, namisgr said:

On 11/11/2023 at 1:54 PM, fantastic_four said:

But that term gets thrown at men who mostly just have a bias towards men, and it's irritating.

What makes that bias not ingrained, do you believe?  Something ingrained is believed, firmly fixed, and difficult to change.  Seems to fit a significant number (but not all) of negative viewpoints expressed in this thread and the one about the Barbie movie.

My son is a chauvinist because he prefers hanging out with other boys, and my daughter is the same way.  But neither of them have an actual ingrained bias against the opposite sex.  My daughter doesn't dislike me, and my son doesn't dislike his mom.  In group situations both of them will play with the opposite gender if they're just coincidentally around, but they don't bond with the opposite gender much yet, if at all.  We all tend to somewhat grow out of that chauvinism after puberty, but certainly most of us also maintain it throughout our lives to varying extents.  Adult men still mostly befriend other adult men, and the same goes for women.

My kids would be misogynist or misandrist if they actively refused to associate with the opposite gender and consistently expressed their disdain for the opposite gender.  That's pretty rare, and I've never seen it myself in a kid.  I'm also not sure I've seen it in an adult in my own life, but we see it in the media or in reports of gender-based crime.  We also could be around misogynists/misandrists who have learned to hide it.

I have no idea who in this thread is a misogynist because I could only identify it by observing a pattern of behavior across multiple incidents.  It's ingrained if you see someone doing it over and over and over within many different contexts.  I tend to presume chauvinism since it's pretty pervasive, and I save accusations of misogyny for people where it's clear they hate or have that repetitive ingrained bias against women.  But Gen Z--and plenty of people from older generations--don't even know what chauvinism is since accusations of misogyny are now thrown around so much more often.

[Bosco685]

[Nick Furious]

On 11/11/2023 at 12:54 PM, fantastic_four said:

80% of people who use that word skip the "ingrained" part, and I'm not a fan of the definition due to that--it needs to go further in differentiating men with a bias towards men as opposed to men who have an active and perpetual disdain for women.

Rapists are misogynists.  I think Harvey Weinstein must have been a misogynist given what he did to actresses, but I'm not totally sure of it without learning more about him.  Most of the other MeToo celebrities who got cancelled weren't misogynists, but they certainly got called that a lot.  But that term gets thrown at men who mostly just have a bias towards men, and it's irritating.

 

On 11/11/2023 at 12:58 PM, namisgr said:

What makes that bias not ingrained, do you believe?  Something ingrained is believed, firmly fixed, and difficult to change.  Seems to fit a significant number (but not all) of negative viewpoints expressed in this thread and the one about the Barbie movie.

I once heard someone speaking on the difference between pre-conceptions and prejudices.  He said that pre-conceptions are common to everyone but are surface level and are easily knocked down with a minute or two of conversation.   Prejudices, on the other hand, are deeply ingrained and much harder to root out.  I thought that was fair.  There's probably a lot of room for discussion on the differences between the two.   

[mr_highgrade]

On 11/11/2023 at 1:03 PM, Buzzetta said:

I agree.  I watched the Mets fanbase here in NY clamor for some action by ownership after their disastrous 2023 season.  Ownership let Buck Showalter go.  Now you can debate back and forth whether Showalter is the guy to close the deal but he is a great baseball manager and mind.   The Mets went ahead and hired Carlos Mendoza, the Yankees bench coach as the replacement after he came off his own disastrous season. 

The question that the Mets did not really consider when letting Buck go, who are we going to get that is better.

The Yankees made the same mistake when they let Joe Girardi go.  I would say in retrospect that Boone was not the answer.

You let Kevin Feige go, who is the better suited mind to replace him? 

If the Yankees are smart they hire Buck as a bench coach immediately. I think he's the perfect guy for Boone to lean on. 

[Broke as a Joke]

On 11/11/2023 at 11:57 AM, VintageComics said:

I'm going to assume you're talking about me and want to point out that I am very thrilled that you didn't call me Greymane. 

If it wasn't about me, then I wish it was. 

No,  Silvermane is a boardie here who is the world's biggest Carol Danvers fan.  

But you admitting the hair is now all silver/gray is encouraging.  😁

[darkstar]

On 11/11/2023 at 10:06 AM, fantastic_four said:

I'm guessing Kennedy has never known who Figrin D'an is, and that's who they need curating their content--a superfan. 

Disney canceled the jizz wailers back in September. Never forget.

[VintageComics]

On 11/11/2023 at 3:02 PM, fantastic_four said:

But Gen Z--and plenty of people from older generations--don't even know what chauvinism is since accusations of misogyny are now thrown around so much more often.

The entire reason the greatest apex predators in history aren't still roaming around is because we used our ingenuity and collaboration as men and women combined, to become the greatest species on the planet. Men couldn't have done it without women and men couldn't have done it without women. 

Just TRY to argue that one. 

There is a distinct, recent pattern in society to paint men as troublesome and that they need to be fixed, and it's really happening.

Being told I'm a "bad patriarch" by the media, while my daughters and exes consider me a "good patriarch" is where the disconnect comes from. 

Why did the meaning change? That's the $9 Trillion question nobody is allowed to talk about.

And while the conversation is not allowed to be had, men are getting neutered (psychologically, physically and symbolically) in every sense of the word. If we'd done that even 100 years ago, we wouldn't even be here today as a race.

 

MUST ADD THIS: The counterpoint is the women's POV and I fully understand that too, but I don't want to broach a new topic here and continue to derail the thread. 

 

[N7 M31]

"but I don't want to broach a new topic here and continue to derail the thread. "

[Jemin]

Has anyone here seen this movie yet?  I wanted to go tonight, but the schedule didn't work out.  I'm curious if anyone has seen it!

[Bosco685]

On 11/11/2023 at 3:53 PM, Jemin said:

Has anyone here seen this movie yet?  I wanted to go tonight, but the schedule didn't work out.  I'm curious if anyone has seen it!

I think one person posted a review a ways back. I think.

[D84]

In before the next lock!

Seriously, can we have one ing Marvel movie thread that doesn't break into a debate like on a political round table. I've taken a step back from here because I'm sick of it.

If you didn't like or aren't interested in this movie doesn't make someone sexist and liking it doesn't make you virtuous. 

It's just a movie!

[Cman429]

On 11/11/2023 at 3:14 PM, Bosco685 said:

Wow. Not sure what’s more embarrassing. Having a smaller opening than Ed Norton’s ridiculous Hulk or that more people were willing to see violent underage cultist Ezra’s Flash movie than the Powerpuff Marvels.