Anyone else over the Promise Collection? 6 6

[Artboy99]

On 1/12/2022 at 10:08 AM, Robot Man said:

Very Awsome book. I am amazed you don’t have it yet. Your assessment on grade and price makes a lot of sense. But then, you are a respected collector that knows what he is doing. A lot of the buyers of these books are trusting HA and CGC. Obviously, not necessarily a good thing for someone who is not familiar with the hobby. 

I agree with you. I questioned the grades of many of the Promised books with rusty staples, large dust shadows, etc.

 

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:48 PM, Artboy99 said:

I agree with you. I questioned the grades of many of the Promised books with rusty staples, large dust shadows, etc.

 

From what I understood recently, there seems to be a huge difference between rust simply being on the staple and whether or not it stained the comic in any way. If it did, then it's an automatic 8.0 no matter what. But if rust is just on the staple itself (which does rust naturally overtime), then it could be a higher. Similarly to how a cover's colour can be faded overtime and still get a very high grade. Makes for an ugly high grade book, but it's high grade none the less (at least from that perspective) since there is no wear or staining of any kind.

Edited January 12, 2022 by William-James88

[Beige]

I bought one.

A book I struggled to find anywhere else for quite sometime.

 

I'm very happy to now own it.

 

I get some books were overgraded and of course we all know why - but I'm collecting a run, it fills a gap, and I'm happy with it.

 

 

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:44 PM, Beige said:

I bought one.

A book I struggled to find anywhere else for quite sometime.

 

I'm very happy to now own it.

 

I get some books were overgraded and of course we all know why - but I'm collecting a run, it fills a gap, and I'm happy with it.

 

 

I like this story, glad you could find your book. They had a book I was struggling to find too but it was just out of reach for me (plus it would feel out of place in my collection since it would be so much higher grade than the rest).

[fifties]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:44 PM, Beige said:

 

 

I get some books were overgraded and of course we all know why

 

 

Why?

Lou Fine posted in response to my question, "You really can't be serious here when you say you don't know the reason why?  "

So boys, "Tell Me Why" (that was a song title in 1961 by the Belmonts, BTW).  I asked because I don't know.  Or is there fear that CGC will kick you off the board if you reveal anything they do with "unclean hands"?

[Randall Dowling]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:11 PM, fifties said:

Why?

Lou Fine posted in response to my question, "You really can't be serious here when you say you don't know the reason why?  "

So boys, "Tell Me Why" (that was a song title in 1961 by the Belmonts, BTW).  I asked because I don't know.  Or is there fear that CGC will kick you off the board if you reveal anything they do with "unclean hands"?

I think there's an assumption of impropriety due to the relationship between ownership and management of CGC and ownership of Heritage.  And this impropriety translated into "gift grades" on many of the Promise books.  But, of course, such an assumption is ludicrous and completely impossible.  Who would even think of such a thing?  

[jimbo_7071]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:48 PM, Artboy99 said:

I agree with you. I questioned the grades of many of the Promised books with rusty staples, large dust shadows, etc.

 

CGC has always been a little lenient with dust shadows, and I've seen books in at least 9.0 or 9.2 with significant rust on the staples before.

What really got me was the way more significant defects, like rat chews and significant spine stress, were penalized so lightly.

Edited January 12, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[Joshua33]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:27 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

CGC has always been a little lenient with dust shadows, and I've seen books in at least 9.0 or 9.2 with significant rust on the staples before.

What really got me was the way more significant defects, like rat chews and significant spine stress, were penalized so lightly.

Yeah, whomever graded that Gangsters can't win... well, I guess I don't even need to say it, but if I subbed that book, I'd be ecstatic with a 7.0

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:27 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

 

 

That 9.2 is horrid (for that grade)

Edited January 13, 2022 by William-James88

[Joshua33]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:13 PM, William-James88 said:

That 9.2 is horrid (for that grade)

Yeah, and oddly enough, it almost looks like the top reader edge corner was reattached. As far as the photo, it certainly is laying at an odd angle.

[RareHighGrade]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:27 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

CGC has always been a little lenient with dust shadows, and I've seen books in at least 9.0 or 9.2 with significant rust on the staples before.

What really got me was the way more significant defects, like rat chews and significant spine stress, were penalized so lightly.

 

It's somewhat humorous that the notes say "Double Cover: 1st cover 9.2, interior cover 8.5."

I would have expected the reverse description.  If the 1st cover, with that horribly damaged lower right corner, is 9.2, what on Earth does the lower graded interior cover look like?

[LearnedHand]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:28 PM, William-James88 said:

From what I understood recently, there seems to be a huge difference between rust simply being on the staple and whether or not it stained the comic in any way. If it did, then it's an automatic 8.0 no matter what. But if rust is just on the staple itself (which does rust naturally overtime), then it could be a higher. Similarly to how a cover's colour can be faded overtime and still get a very high grade. Makes for an ugly high grade book, but it's high grade none the less (at least from that perspective) since there is no wear or staining of any kind.

By any rational measure, a book is supposed to be graded in its entirety.  Anything that detracts from its beauty separates it farther from a perfect grade.

 

In terms of the "Promise Collection is totally over-graded" comments:  I think there's clear evidence that some are slightly to moderately over-graded.  At the same time, many are right on, and some may even be conservatively graded.  As one example, this one is certainly no 9.6 ... but a 7.5?  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/all-winners-comics-9-the-promise-collection-pedigree-timely-1943-cgc-vf-75-white-pages/a/7244-96011.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

  

Edited February 5, 2022 by LearnedHand

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:44 PM, LearnedHand said:

By any rational measure, a book is supposed to be graded in its entirety.  Anything that detracts from its beauty separates it father from a perfect grade.

  

That isn't how CGC's grading standards work. Only wear and tear (and staining) can stop a book from being a 9.8. Bindery defects and a bunch of other allowed defects make some 9.2 books look better than 9.8s at times. Plus there was that super faded hulk 181 in a higher grade slab that someone had posted. 

 

By the way, I am not disagreeing with you. What you said is what I live by too, buying the book rather than the slab. But it's just not how CGC sees things.

[Joshua33]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:44 PM, LearnedHand said:

By any rational measure, a book is supposed to be graded in its entirety.  Anything that detracts from its beauty separates it father from a perfect grade.

 

In terms of the "Promise Collection is totally over-graded" comments:  I think there's clear evidence that some are slightly to moderately over-graded.  At the same time, many are right on, and some may even be conservatively graded.  As one example, this one is certainly no 9.6 ... but a 7.5?  

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/all-winners-comics-9-the-promise-collection-pedigree-timely-1943-cgc-vf-75-white-pages/a/7244-96011.s?ic2=mybidspage-lotlinks-12202013&tab=MyBids-101116

  

Yeah even with the chip out of the top cover on the bindery edge, the light soiling present in the majority of the letters, and the 1/2" tear on the back cover at the top edge, you would think it would be higher. 

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:25 PM, Joshua33 said:

Yeah even with the chip out of the top cover on the bindery edge, the light soiling present in the majority of the letters, and the 1/2" tear on the back cover at the top edge, you would think it would be higher. 

CGC is super strict on soiling

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 1/12/2022 at 10:48 AM, Robot Man said:

Why? 

Why? Because I view you as a valued member of the board, and if you’ve given up comics, I hate to hear it, is all

[Surfing Alien]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:25 PM, Joshua33 said:

Yeah even with the chip out of the top cover on the bindery edge, the light soiling present in the majority of the letters, and the 1/2" tear on the back cover at the top edge, you would think it would be higher. 

You forgot to mention all that tearing at the staple. Trust me... that ain't no 9.6 staple on a book i'd submit 

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 10:43 PM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Why? Because I view you as a valued member of the board, and if you’ve given up comics, I hate to hear it, is all

Pretty sure he's just talking about this particular collection. We've been chatting about other comics and I assure you he is still very much into this hobby. Has the healthiest approach to it I have ever seen.

[lou_fine]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:27 PM, jimbo_7071 said:

What really got me was the way more significant defects, like rat chews and significant spine stress, were penalized so lightly.

You kind sir, have clearly forgotten that both Heritage and CGC in conjunction have conducted a full DNA spectral analysis of the rat chews and bitten off corners and have reached the scientific conclusion beyond a shadow of doubt that all of these rat chews and missing corners have been traced back to the body of a dead rat found at the production printing plant.    

And as all long time collectors should clearly know by now, all production factory and printing related defects on books are to be discounted and ignored for grading purposes.  

As for your so-called significant spine stress, must you also be reminded that spines, edges, corners, and staple areas are all above the pay grade of the CGC graders for the grading of this Promise Collection, as the grading of these parts of the book falls under the domain of the suits in the top floor penthouse corner suite.     

Edited January 13, 2022 by lou_fine

[Cat-Man_America]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:28 PM, lou_fine said:

You kind sir, have clearly forgotten that both Heritage and CGC in conjunction have conducted a full DNA spectral analysis of the rat chews and bitten off corners and have reached the scientific conclusion beyond a shadow of doubt that all of these rat chews and missing corners have been traced back to the body of a dead rat found at the production printing plant.    

And as all long time collectors should clearly know by now, all production factory and printing related defects on books are to be discounted and ignored for grading purposes.  

As for your so-called significant spine stress, must you also be reminded that spines, edges, corners, and staple areas are all above the pay grade of the graders for the grading of this Promise Collection, as the grading of these parts of the book falls under the domain of the suits in the top floor penthouse corner suite.     

It was such a small chew that the graders may have determined it to be micro-ratting.  Mice nibbles may be given a bit more more leeway.