Secret Wars #8 OA page sells for 3.4 million, first page appearance of the black costume. 6 6

[CGC Mike]

I would appreciate it if everyone would keep the conversation civil, no politics and stay on topic.  I will start watching this thread, and If I continue to see the concerns happen that I mentioned above, I will ban people from this topic, issue warnings and/or lock the thread.  

[Bookery]

On 1/13/2022 at 7:53 PM, Randall Dowling said:

I personally subscribe to the belief that living creators should get a percentage of the sale every time their work sells for a higher price.  

Not picking on any one post, because several submitted the same sentiments.  But after wading through 10 pages of this thread, not a single person presented the logical counter-argument.

This is not a Frazetta painting... a single-creator work of art, self-contained, and out of the imagination of the one creator.  But with absolutely no disrespect to Mike Zeck, his art is NOT the reason this sold for 3.5 million.  If that were true, then hundreds of other of his pages would be worth, even if not this amount, at least small fortune each.  In fact, this page might have sold similarly regardless of which competent and respected Marvel artist drew it.  The buyers are paying for this because they believe it is an iconic appearance in an even longer-running iconic narrative.  It is the story behind this page that gives it perceived value.  An even stronger case could be made that it is Jim Shooter that deserves more of the credit for the valuation.

But even that's not entirely true.  Because even with Zeck's art and Shooter's writing (AND the inking and the lettering), this page should not be worth beyond the norm if it weren't in particular a Spider-Man page.  So the real value belongs to this being Spider-Man as opposed to some minor character changing into an alien costume.  So really, I guess, the "share of the windfall" should go to Stan Lee's estate.

Except that... Spider-Man was in part inspired by Jack Kirby's prior The Fly... so then we have to wok in Jack's estate...

Except, again, that whatever work Lee and Kirby and Zeck and Shooter put into this, none of it would have happened if the corporate entity of Marvel hadn't approved the creation and ongoing title of Spider-Man to begin with.  And since Marvel is wholly owned today by another corporation, I believe the seller should give up half his profits and donate it to that poor impoverished Disney company.

 

[Buzzetta]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:59 PM, Bookery said:

Not picking on any one post, because several submitted the same sentiments.  But after wading through 10 pages of this thread, not a single person presented the logical counter-argument.

This is not a Frazetta painting... a single-creator work of art, self-contained, and out of the imagination of the one creator.  But with absolutely no disrespect to Mike Zeck, his art is NOT the reason this sold for 3.5 million.  If that were true, then hundreds of other of his pages would be worth, even if not this amount, at least small fortune each.  In fact, this page might have sold similarly regardless of which competent and respected Marvel artist drew it.  The buyers are paying for this because they believe it is an iconic appearance in an even longer-running iconic narrative.  It is the story behind this page that gives it perceived value.  An even stronger case could be made that it is Jim Shooter that deserves more of the credit for the valuation.

But even that's not entirely true.  Because even with Zeck's art and Shooter's writing (AND the inking and the lettering), this page should not be worth beyond the norm if it weren't in particular a Spider-Man page.  So the real value belongs to this being Spider-Man as opposed to some minor character changing into an alien costume. 

 

This is what I have been saying about the cover of GI Joe 21.  

SOME of the 'art guys' don't seem to get that the characters are more important than the artists that are placed in charge of them for that issue.  So if you get an important moment in that character's narrative that is drawn by a reasonably skilled artist that it will be more desirable than the normal "going rate" for comparable pages or artists. 

 

[Randall Dowling]

On 1/17/2022 at 12:41 PM, paqart said:

Attached are some of the sketches I made in China during breaks from work.

I like your sketching style.  Nice and loose.  

[VintageComics]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:44 AM, buttock said:

I clicked on this thread to see about people's thoughts on the SW8 page sale and found nothing but petty bickering.  I don't know what I expected, but I do know this is what @CGC Mike was talking about in terms of derailing threads.  

Moms notified. 

[kav]

On 1/24/2022 at 1:59 PM, Bookery said:

Not picking on any one post, because several submitted the same sentiments.  But after wading through 10 pages of this thread, not a single person presented the logical counter-argument.

This is not a Frazetta painting... a single-creator work of art, self-contained, and out of the imagination of the one creator.  But with absolutely no disrespect to Mike Zeck, his art is NOT the reason this sold for 3.5 million.  If that were true, then hundreds of other of his pages would be worth, even if not this amount, at least small fortune each.  In fact, this page might have sold similarly regardless of which competent and respected Marvel artist drew it.  The buyers are paying for this because they believe it is an iconic appearance in an even longer-running iconic narrative.  It is the story behind this page that gives it perceived value.  An even stronger case could be made that it is Jim Shooter that deserves more of the credit for the valuation.

But even that's not entirely true.  Because even with Zeck's art and Shooter's writing (AND the inking and the lettering), this page should not be worth beyond the norm if it weren't in particular a Spider-Man page.  So the real value belongs to this being Spider-Man as opposed to some minor character changing into an alien costume.  So really, I guess, the "share of the windfall" should go to Stan Lee's estate.

Except that... Spider-Man was in part inspired by Jack Kirby's prior The Fly... so then we have to wok in Jack's estate...

Except, again, that whatever work Lee and Kirby and Zeck and Shooter put into this, none of it would have happened if the corporate entity of Marvel hadn't approved the creation and ongoing title of Spider-Man to begin with.  And since Marvel is wholly owned today by another corporation, I believe the seller should give up half his profits and donate it to that poor impoverished Disney company.

 

 

On 1/24/2022 at 2:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

This is what I have been saying about the cover of GI Joe 21.  

SOME of the 'art guys' don't seem to get that the characters are more important than the artists that are placed in charge of them for that issue.  So if you get an important moment in that character's narrative that is drawn by a reasonably skilled artist that it will be more desirable than the normal "going rate" for comparable pages or artists. 

 

liefeld could have drawn this page and it would be worth the same amount.

[kav]

You do not want CGC Mike watching your posts.  Trust me on this.

[jjonahjameson11]

The sale of the Secret Wars #8 pages will cause owners of ASM 252 pages to bring them out to auction, guaranteed!

[Bronty]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:27 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

The sale of the Secret Wars #8 pages will cause owners of ASM 252 pages to bring them out to auction, guaranteed!

Already an SW8 page coming to Hake's.

[Bookery]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:21 PM, kav said:

 

liefeld could have drawn this page and it would be worth the same amount.

Not exactly, but close.  The artist has some impact, even though the value is mostly historical.  I have done a deep dive on this, and after pages of calculations, have determined that this page, if drawn by Liefeld, would have topped out at $2.9 million.  On the other hand, were it drawn by Kirby, it would have fetched approximately New Hampshire.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 1/24/2022 at 5:13 PM, Buzzetta said:

This is what I have been saying about the cover of GI Joe 21.  

SOME of the 'art guys' don't seem to get that the characters are more important than the artists that are placed in charge of them for that issue.  So if you get an important moment in that character's narrative that is drawn by a reasonably skilled artist that it will be more desirable than the normal "going rate" for comparable pages or artists. 

 

Some of the art guys collect in a very similar  approach to some comic guys whereby they may collect only by character or by artist or by era or by title.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 1/24/2022 at 6:41 PM, Bronty said:

Already an SW8 page coming to Hake's.

Yeah,  but I’m talking ASM 252!  It would be interesting to see the comps.

 

[paqart]

On 1/17/2022 at 4:06 PM, Buzzetta said:

anyone who believes in that nonsense

No one "believes in that nonsense". Not you, and not the people you think believe in it. This characterization is false, created for political reasons only. It's like when people from one political party demonize their opposition for things they never thought, said or did, and vice versa. Instead of swinging bats at piñatas, it makes more sense to ask who is putting out all this fake information. The only result is that it distracts people from the real bad guys who control the narrative for everyone. The key to this working is to redefine words and substitute fake codes for everything you hear. In that way, the innocent sound guilty and vice versa.

As for the Secret Wars illustration, the price seems high to me because it is less about the art than its value as a historical artifact. On that basis, I have a hard time believing that it is worth about the same as an autograph copy of Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. For the same price, a buyer could have bought all 11 of the most expensive Maxfield Parrish paintings sold by Heritage Auctions. You could have also picked up a very nice, though not spectacular, Norman Rockwell oil painting several times over. To put it back in the context of comic book history, the price realized looks more like what I would expect for the art to the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15. For high quality comic art, as opposed to simply good but containing a key story element, I would look to Bernie Wrightson or Frank Frazetta, both of whom have more history and quality in their work than Zeck, as good as he is.

[Bronty]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:09 PM, paqart said:

No one "believes in that nonsense". Not you, and not the people you think believe in it. This characterization is false, created for political reasons only. It's like when people from one political party demonize their opposition for things they never thought, said or did, and vice versa. Instead of swinging bats at piñatas, it makes more sense to ask who is putting out all this fake information. The only result is that it distracts people from the real bad guys who control the narrative for everyone. The key to this working is to redefine words and substitute fake codes for everything you hear. In that way, the innocent sound guilty and vice versa.

As for the Secret Wars illustration, the price seems high to me because it is less about the art than its value as a historical artifact. On that basis, I have a hard time believing that it is worth about the same as an autograph copy of Abraham Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation. For the same price, a buyer could have bought all 11 of the most expensive Maxfield Parrish paintings sold by Heritage Auctions. You could have also picked up a very nice, though not spectacular, Norman Rockwell oil painting several times over. To put it back in the context of comic book history, the price realized looks more like what I would expect for the art to the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15. For high quality comic art, as opposed to simply good but containing a key story element, I would look to Bernie Wrightson or Frank Frazetta, both of whom have more history and quality in their work than Zeck, as good as he is.

I like and hear your comparisons, but at the end of the day its supply and demand and nothing else.   Not importance.    The price comparisons between objects, particularly unique objects like art, don't "need" to make sense.    A $5m modern 1/1 baseball or basketball card is proof of that.    That kind of card is a totally unimportant card in every way, really... except to the buyer.  

Similarly, this page is not important, no, and I don't think any of us would argue that it was well bought.    But what it will sell for next time could be 25% of a Parrish or 25x a Parrish.    That's not really a relevant metric:  we may as well be comparing fish and bicycles.

Edited January 25, 2022 by Bronty

[Prince Namor]

[Poekaymon]

Time will tell whether it was a good investment (in terms of money).  20 years from now it might be considered a bargain.  Further, the reality is that for a lot of art collectors 3.4m is pizza money.

[Cat]

On 1/26/2022 at 5:09 AM, paqart said:

No one "believes in that nonsense". Not you, and not the people you think believe in it. This characterization is false, created for political reasons only. It's like when people from one political party demonize their opposition for things they never thought, said or did, and vice versa. Instead of swinging bats at piñatas, it makes more sense to ask who is putting out all this fake information. The only result is that it distracts people from the real bad guys who control the narrative for everyone. The key to this working is to redefine words and substitute fake codes for everything you hear. In that way, the innocent sound guilty and vice versa.

 

First off, I apologise to everyone else for this. This will be the last time I take this thread off topic. @paqart, if after this comment of mine, you wish to discuss this further, please either make a new thread, making sure to make it non-political (difficult to do about Comicsgate), to continue this discussion. Please note none of what you will see now is meant to be political. I am not using anything I have read, only what I have personally observed. I don't know what fake information you're talking about, everything mentioned so far here was bang on. I stand behind it. If you want to be specific, please do so. But you can't, because everything can be refuted.

And don't start on 'the real bad guys that harm people'. Who is that? Marvel? DC? They're not nameless conglomerates. They're made up of people. People we can name, for the most part, and many we can even talk too. From here it continues to degrade to even more gibberish, and I just can't parse that, so I'm afraid you do need to work on strengthening your arguments, your way of thinking, and those you hang around. Beware the echo chamber. 

Yes, paqart, both you and I know people believe in this 'nonsense'. People do seriously call Ethan Van Sciver 'Caesar', as funny as it sounds. I'm sure you're aware of it, and have encountered it. You know the audience you're getting with these books, and what they are. You're one of them, for goodness sake. Your experience mirrors theirs. Your wants and desires out of the industry. 

Remember, it all started with a milkshake. 

[Coverless 9.8]

On 1/24/2022 at 4:59 PM, Bookery said:

But even that's not entirely true.  Because even with Zeck's art and Shooter's writing (AND the inking and the lettering), this page should not be worth beyond the norm if it weren't in particular a Spider-Man page.  So the real value belongs to this being Spider-Man as opposed to some minor character changing into an alien costume.  So really, I guess, the "share of the windfall" should go to Stan Lee's estate.

Except that... Spider-Man was in part inspired by Jack Kirby's prior The Fly... so then we have to wok in Jack's estate...

Except, again, that whatever work Lee and Kirby and Zeck and Shooter put into this, none of it would have happened if the corporate entity of Marvel hadn't approved the creation and ongoing title of Spider-Man to begin with.  And since Marvel is wholly owned today by another corporation, I believe the seller should give up half his profits and donate it to that poor impoverished Disney company.

 

Appropriate that you never mentioned Ditko's estate as he may have left instructions to reject any Spider-Man money that comes their way!  

[Randall Dowling]

On 1/24/2022 at 3:59 PM, Bookery said:

Not picking on any one post, because several submitted the same sentiments.  But after wading through 10 pages of this thread, not a single person presented the logical counter-argument.

This is not a Frazetta painting... a single-creator work of art, self-contained, and out of the imagination of the one creator.  But with absolutely no disrespect to Mike Zeck, his art is NOT the reason this sold for 3.5 million.  If that were true, then hundreds of other of his pages would be worth, even if not this amount, at least small fortune each.  In fact, this page might have sold similarly regardless of which competent and respected Marvel artist drew it.  The buyers are paying for this because they believe it is an iconic appearance in an even longer-running iconic narrative.  It is the story behind this page that gives it perceived value.  An even stronger case could be made that it is Jim Shooter that deserves more of the credit for the valuation.

But even that's not entirely true.  Because even with Zeck's art and Shooter's writing (AND the inking and the lettering), this page should not be worth beyond the norm if it weren't in particular a Spider-Man page.  So the real value belongs to this being Spider-Man as opposed to some minor character changing into an alien costume.  So really, I guess, the "share of the windfall" should go to Stan Lee's estate.

Except that... Spider-Man was in part inspired by Jack Kirby's prior The Fly... so then we have to wok in Jack's estate...

Except, again, that whatever work Lee and Kirby and Zeck and Shooter put into this, none of it would have happened if the corporate entity of Marvel hadn't approved the creation and ongoing title of Spider-Man to begin with.  And since Marvel is wholly owned today by another corporation, I believe the seller should give up half his profits and donate it to that poor impoverished Disney company.

 

While I understand the point that you're making, it seems that your argument boils down to "It's the content of the art that gives it value, not the way it is composed, laid out, drawn and rendered.  Which I don't agree with at all.  If this were true, it would upend all art valuations as no one would be collecting art based on artist, but rather content.  

I agree that seminole moments in the history of comics increase the value of a given piece of original art, I don't agree that it's the only thing that matters or even the most important thing that matters.  It's an argument that any artist drawing the same material would be worth just as much.  And I'm not sure that's true.  Having said this, I do agree that most likely, whoever paid this absurd sum did so mainly because of the content.  To each their own.

The arguments of work-for-hire terms and how comic art was produced have been repeated ad nauseam and I'm not here to repeat.  My point is purely the fact that for Mike Zeck, he drew that page based upon loose direction given to him by the writer and editor, he was paid the going page rate of the time (which wasn't much), at some point he (or someone else) sold it for hundreds of dollars, and now someone has paid this incredible price (which was more than Mike Zeck made in his entire life) for something he made.  I don't have a good solution to this but I do know that this isn't fair (but then, neither is life).

Still, I'm not about to defend unfairness as a virtue of the status quo.  Are we not aspiring for a more and more ideal landscape for living and existing with one another?  Shouldn't we want Mike Zeck to share in this current good fortune?  Or should we want him to die in poverty as so many comic artists have?  It's not like Marvel or DC were offering generous retirement packages.  

There are many things that I would not agree with Neal Adams about, but I will always admire how he advocated for Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster in the 70s and forced DC to take care of them.  He didn't have to do that and he had little to gain and much to lose in doing so.  They had lost their case in court over and over.  The debate was closed.  If we apply your argument to their plight, they would have gotten nothing.  Which I don't agree with.  

[paqart]

On 1/25/2022 at 2:46 PM, Bronty said:

I like and hear your comparisons, but at the end of the day its supply and demand and nothing else.   Not importance.    The price comparisons between objects, particularly unique objects like art, don't "need" to make sense.    A $5m modern 1/1 baseball or basketball card is proof of that.    That kind of card is a totally unimportant card in every way, really... except to the buyer.  

Similarly, this page is not important, no, and I don't think any of us would argue that it was well bought.    But what it will sell for next time could be 25% of a Parrish or 25x a Parrish.    That's not really a relevant metric:  we may as well be comparing fish and bicycles.

Fair enough. The value is whatever the buyers think the value is. I'm surprised it is valued so highly but that s because I'm looking at it as art and know I can find more impressive examples for much less.