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Secret Wars #8 OA page sells for 3.4 million, first page appearance of the black costume.
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Started by BigLeagueCHEW,

250 posts in this topic

theCapraAegagrus

theCapraAegagrus

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On 1/25/2022 at 7:54 PM, Randall Dowling said:

The arguments of work-for-hire terms and how comic art was produced have been repeated ad nauseam and I'm not here to repeat.  My point is purely the fact that for Mike Zeck, he drew that page based upon loose direction given to him by the writer and editor, he was paid the going page rate of the time (which wasn't much), at some point he (or someone else) sold it for hundreds of dollars, and now someone has paid this incredible price (which was more than Mike Zeck made in his entire life) for something he made.  I don't have a good solution to this but I do know that this isn't fair (but then, neither is life).

Still, I'm not about to defend unfairness as a virtue of the status quo.  Are we not aspiring for a more and more ideal landscape for living and existing with one another?  Shouldn't we want Mike Zeck to share in this current good fortune?  Or should we want him to die in poverty as so many comic artists have?  It's not like Marvel or DC were offering generous retirement packages. 

To call this knowledge is overstepping. Why do you think that this is "unfair"? Had he not chosen to sell the art himself*, then I may have an inkling to agree with a different perception, but creating something and then selling it is washing your own hands of said creation (the OA itself, that is).

*My understanding is that Zeck sold it.

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Bronty

Bronty

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100%.   I’m sorry but artists don’t walk on water.   Should the general contractor who built your home be paid 5% every time a house is sold?    Should your dentist be paid every time you smile?   
 

This is property like any other.   If the artist wants to participate in the potential future value, all he has to do is keep it and not sell it. 

Edited by Bronty
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VintageComics

VintageComics

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And just so that people don't think I'm an Ogre, if I'd got the $3.8MIL check for selling that piece, I would likely cut a chunk of change to Mike Zeck as a thank you. 

How much? I don't know. I don't think he's OWED A SINGLE DIME but I think most good hearted people would do something for the guy. 

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Buzzetta

Buzzetta

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:13 AM, VintageComics said:

And just so that people don't think I'm an Ogre, if I'd got the $3.8MIL check for selling that piece, I would likely cut a chunk of change to Mike Zeck as a thank you. 

How much? I don't know. I don't think he's OWED A SINGLE DIME but I think most good hearted people would do something for the guy. 

Liefeld posted his thoughts in the Facebook OA group.  He echoed your statement that as an artist he (Liefeld) made his money when he was contracted to do the art to begin with and then when he sold it to someone in the second hand market. 

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Bronty

Bronty

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:13 AM, VintageComics said:

And just so that people don't think I'm an Ogre, if I'd got the $3.8MIL check for selling that piece, I would likely cut a chunk of change to Mike Zeck as a thank you. 

How much? I don't know. I don't think he's OWED A SINGLE DIME but I think most good hearted people would do something for the guy. 

I wouldn't.   I guess I'm an ogre.   

If I knew Zeck personally before the sale that might change things.

Otherwise, I'm not going to conflate my respect for his art with friendship.     We aren't friends, and I don't pass out bags of money to people I don't know.

 

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Bookery

Bookery

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On 1/25/2022 at 7:54 PM, Randall Dowling said:

While I understand the point that you're making, it seems that your argument boils down to "It's the content of the art that gives it value, not the way it is composed, laid out, drawn and rendered.  Which I don't agree with at all.  If this were true, it would upend all art valuations as no one would be collecting art based on artist, but rather content.

I didn't say that I believe it as a general rule. But I do believe it in this case.  As mentioned by others, Frazetta, Parrish, Rockwell, etc., created original art pieces that couldn't exist if they hadn't made them (and even in Frazetta's case, he was usually drawing something that was inspired by the novel his cover art was for).  In those cases, one is definitely paying specifically for the artist's work.  In this case, however, the art is solid, but fairly typical for Marvel from that period.  The Spider-man leap is pretty standard from the Romita era.  And the reason we know the value has little to do with Zeck is that his other, some even better, pages probably run in the thousands, not millions of dollars.

On 1/25/2022 at 7:54 PM, Randall Dowling said:

Shouldn't we want Mike Zeck to share in this current good fortune?  Or should we want him to die in poverty as so many comic artists have?  

Again, I think it's a bit insulting to everyone who had a hand in building to this iconic story to focus on Zeck alone.  It is a valid argument to say that Shooter's storyline has more to do with this item's significance than the specific artwork.  And as I said previously, this page, without Marvel's (now Disney's) history leading up to it is practically worthless.  This is why you can't really claim someone's work-for-hire is owed anything down the road... it's way too complicated and involves too many people.  Even the Siegel and Shuster case is a bit different, as they created Superman independently, and sold the concept to DC.  But Zeck (or anyone else who worked on MSSW 8), didn't have anything to do with creating the pulp culture icon of Spider-Man, which is where the true intrinsic value (overblown or not) lies.  Comic fans often focus on artwork to the exclusivity of everything else... but unlike perhaps the underground artists who created their own comic books start to finish, almost all mainstream comic book art is part of a corporate package with a long lineage. 

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Bookery

Bookery

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:01 AM, VintageComics said:

Using RD's thinking everyone will always be moentarily 'owed' for something they did at some point in their lives. It's actually COUNTER productive to being fair and eventually makes everyone liable for something. 

To this point... did my 3 pulp guides bring more attention to pulps then they might have gotten otherwise?  Can some of the recent explosion of interest (and value) be attributed to that?  I don't know.  But just to be on the safe side, I think everyone who sells a pulp should send a cut to me.  You'll feel better.

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VintageComics

VintageComics

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:36 AM, Bronty said:

We aren't friends, and I don't pass out bags of money to people I don't know.

lol

I like to be generous with people but it all has to remain within the limits of my own conscience, which is really the perfect barometer when someone isn't owed ANYTHING.

On 1/26/2022 at 11:38 AM, Bookery said:

Again, I think it's a bit insulting to everyone who had a hand in building to this iconic story to focus on Zeck alone.

Yep. Without that story line that Zeck page would be a bird cage liner somewhere. Well, not really but you know what I mean. 

On 1/26/2022 at 11:44 AM, Bookery said:

To this point... did my 3 pulp guides bring more attention to pulps then they might have gotten otherwise?  Can some of the recent explosion of interest (and value) be attributed to that?  I don't know.  But just to be on the safe side, I think everyone who sells a pulp should send a cut to me.  You'll feel better.

Excellent example and you absolutely contributed to the rise in pulp interest.

The ideology that everyone is owed something is destructive at it's final conclusion and the only reason it's appealing on it's face is a humanitarian desire to be 'fair' and kind, but I've always said that 'too much kindness is not a good thing' and you have to draw a line between what people are owed, and what you want to give them

If you blur that line, you're philosophically destroying concepts that have got civilization to where we are now, and creating a precedent that will devolve it. 

What came first? The kind heart or the unkind one?

Until you can answer that 'chicken and the egg' question you can't solve the problem of inequality. 

Edited by VintageComics
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Bronty

Bronty

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:55 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

If I had paid $3.8 million for his OA, the notoriety would be my respect for his artwork. You think Picasso's ghosts cares that he isn't alive to get a pretty penny from his OA, or that the world recognizes his talent so much that his OA is so damn valuable?

Aside from the massive property rights issues that were already mentioned , the other obvious issue is that the reason SW8 got a big number is because venom became a big deal.   
 

Michelinie and McFarlane probably did more for the value of that page than the Zeck did.     
 

 

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Bookery

Bookery

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On 1/26/2022 at 12:15 PM, Bronty said:

Aside from the massive property rights issues that were already mentioned , the other obvious issue is that the reason SW8 got a big number is because venom became a big deal.   
 

Michelinie and McFarlane probably did more for the value of that page than the Zeck did.     
 

 

Good point!  I was focused on what came before the issue that influenced the page's value... but in this case, what came after is equally important.

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Chaykin Stevens

Chaykin Stevens

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I think Jim Shooter fed layouts to Mike Zeck for the later issues of Secret Wars, as he was disappointed with Zeck's work on the early issues.  Is it known who inked the page?  The issue had three credited inkers (John Beatty, Jack Abel and Mike Esposito, of whom only Beatty is still alive).  I'd guess it was Esposito, although the solid blacks make it took less egregious than the other pages he worked on.

Edited by Chaykin Stevens
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Bird

Bird

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On 1/26/2022 at 11:13 AM, VintageComics said:

And just so that people don't think I'm an Ogre, if I'd got the $3.8MIL check for selling that piece, I would likely cut a chunk of change to Mike Zeck as a thank you. 

How much? I don't know. I don't think he's OWED A SINGLE DIME but I think most good hearted people would do something for the guy. 

so you endorse the same outcome (giving Zeck money as a result of the sale) but only when you cast yourself as pure of heart and benevolent but anyone who accomplishes the same goal for a different intent is flawed unrealistic and impractical. :golfclap:

I endorse the idea, think it is appropriate and just. For ART. Most of my reasoning is based on the fact that, present company excluded of course, the person who owns it is likely the one with the least to do with the actual art appreciating in value. And generally the artist(s) are the ones most responsible for the increased value due to their body of work as an artist. not soley, but yeah, 10% of all realized increases in value, sure. (Yes we are all so smart to recognize a deal and hidden value, I am talking about other people obviously. meh) And I've gone through the specifics here on the boards before, not gonna type them out again.

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kav

kav

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On 1/25/2022 at 2:20 PM, Mecha_Fantastic said:

Remember, it all started with a milkshake. 

their milkshake brought all the boys to the yard!

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