Is Jack Kirby's Fourth World a "Must-Have" for New Readers? 1 1

[theCapraAegagrus]

It's been on my list for a few months, but as I read about it and look at the contents it seems like something of its time that I would struggle to appreciate. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy his artwork overall and his time at Marvel is significant to the characters and their success, but this work does not seem necessary to the characters it creates for DC. Am I wrong?

[theCapraAegagrus]

A part of the reason that I am considering not buying this series is that the consensus seems to be that it is an unfinished story, with much of it made up as he went along.

[Ken Aldred]

Classic Bronze Age, but Kirby’s dialogue polarises, either considered quite outright terrible by some but entertainingly bombastic to others, so I wouldn’t consider it a must-have for everyone. I personally like the overblown energy in Kirby’s art and phrasing.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/20/2022 at 4:21 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

I read about it and look at the contents it seems like something of its time that I would struggle to appreciate

Yup. It’s around 50 years old, so a common, understandable problem.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/20/2022 at 12:21 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Classic Bronze Age, but Kirby’s dialogue polarises, either considered quite outright terrible by some but entertainingly bombastic to others, so I wouldn’t consider it a must-have for everyone. I personally like the overblown energy in Kirby’s art and phrasing.

Is it fair to say that most of his concepts were ditched after Crisis? Creations like Apokolips, Darkseid, Mother Boxes, Boom Tubes, etc exist afterwards but it seems to me like a lot of it was left in the dust. Is that a fair analysis?

[Ken Aldred]

On 1/20/2022 at 5:34 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Is it fair to say that most of his concepts were ditched after Crisis? Creations like Apokolips, Darkseid, Mother Boxes, Boom Tubes, etc exist afterwards but it seems to me like a lot of it was left in the dust. Is that a fair analysis?

The characters have been used quite a bit down the years, mainly the evil gods of Apokolips, plus Mister Miracle and Orion. The Anti-Life Equation has been in a couple of important storylines, such as Final Crisis.  But, sure many would consider a lot of it inessential despite some good stories. As a Bronze Age kid I have a fondness for the original saga, but, at the opposite extreme, I think it was a writer in Wizard, in the days before film speculation, who asked ‘Does anyone really care about these losers anymore?’, which was a little extreme.  As I said, polarising.

Edited January 20, 2022 by Ken Aldred

[KirbyJack]

I enjoy New Gods (specifically) more every time I read it. I think the stories hold up fine.

 I do not, however, think it’s a must for new readers. 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/20/2022 at 1:25 PM, KirbyJack said:

I enjoy New Gods (specifically) more every time I read it. I think the stories hold up fine.

I do not, however, think it’s a must for new readers. 

With your username, I thought you were going to destroy me.

[KirbyJack]

Destroy you? I can’t even pronounce you!

[shadroch]

Was Kirby at the height of his story-telling when he left Marvel or was he an aging gunfighter seeking one last day of glory?

[KirbyJack]

On 1/20/2022 at 2:43 PM, shadroch said:

Was Kirby at the height of his story-telling when he left Marvel or was he an aging gunfighter seeking one last day of glory?

Hard for me to say the height, but we did get some great, pure Kirby. The concepts and creativity were A-game.

[rjpb]

Conceptually interesting, but ultimately not as satisfying as one would want. Kirby wasn't the greatest storyteller on his own, and overall his collaborations with Stan Lee from Marvel's Silver Age are more entertaining (though they had their share of filler).

[Zonker]

Yes, it helps to read Kirby's Fourth World as if you were living in the middle of the Nixon Administration when it was originally published, with the Woodstock Nation knocking at the door.  He is riffing a bit on Darkseid as Nixon, the ongoing Vietnam War, and the counterculture crashing into all that.  But if you can put yourself in that frame of mind, it is certainly worth a read.  Also as noted above you'll need to check your assumptions about comic book dialogue at the door.  It's not in any way realistic, but instead kind of a grand, over-the-top, operatic speech pattern.

As far as continuity goes, there have been numerous reboots of these Kirby characters, both before and after Crisis.  But few of those post-Kirby runs even acknowledge any of the other reboots, they all call back to the original 11 Kirby issues of New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle as canon, but then go off in different directions from each other.  Including Kirby's "official" 1980s sequel, the Hunger Dogs.  There have been some great latter-day uses of the Fourth World concepts, such as Walt Simonson's Orion series, Tom King's recent Mister Miracle run, Grant Morrison's use of the characters in his JLA of the late 1990s, and the Great Darkness Saga in the early 1980s Legion of Super-Heroes.

For what it's worth, I find this series much more re-readable to this day than something like The Eternals that Kirby did upon his return to Marvel.

[boatfund]

I never liked it, and I bought them all new when they came out - I was in High School.  The New Gods, Forever People, Mister Miracle, Sandman, Jimmy Olsen - the artwork was better than the reading.  DC hyped them a lot "Kirby is Coming" and the books just did not do anything for me at all.  They still don't.  I bought and read Hunger Dogs when it came out much later and didn't like that either.  The Fourth World books are something you will either love or hate.     

Edited January 21, 2022 by boatfund

[cd4ever]

Kirby was a fantastic artist with a great visual imagination.  Much like Neal Adams, that doesn't make him a writer. 

[piper]

I hear the Byrne Fourth World series was much better.

[theCapraAegagrus]

I really appreciate all of the candid feedback. I feel much better having ordered a bunch of Alan Moore books rather than the Fourth World Absolutes. I'll continue to appreciate all of the early Marvel Kirby/Lee stuff that I already own.

[shadroch]

I just picked up the Eagle Moss two volume New Gods. It's about the size of the old Marvel Masterworks and so far I'm enjoying the printing. The art is great in spots, looks mailed in in others but the dialog is hard to read. It's a shame Stan wasn't around to flesh out Kirby's ideas. 

[kav]

critic review of Avatar  

[Mr bla bla]

Kirbys Fourth World I consider some of the very best that have ever been done within the superheroe genre.

its really really good the way Kirby connects with timeless, mythic themes. 
Its a pop cultural celebration of the  basic human themes explored in the sumeric Gilgamesh epos, the norse Volsunga-saga, the german Niebelungen folklore. And in Lucas who ripped Kirby off with the Star Wars franschise afterwards.

I cannot recommend Kirbys FW high enough.

Edited February 27, 2022 by Mr bla bla