How much do the pedigree stories matter to you? 1 1

[sfcityduck]

I was pondering why the Okajima back story propels even mid-grade camp books into multiples above the price of equal (and higher) graded comics.  My conclusion was that the Okajima camp books are a symbol (and an artifact of) of a shameful episode in American history which saw thousands of American citizens (and want to be American citizens - immigrants from Japan) lose their rights and their property, and also a symbol of (and evidence of) the resilience of the internees in maintaining their dignity as they strove to live the most normal life they could under the unjust conditions their own government had subjected them to.  The back story adds a lot of value because it is fascinating history.   And I think comic collectors tend to care about history.

So the back stories do seem to matter when they have some sort of historical significance.   If so, they will boost the values of even mid-grade examples. 

To me this is a thing entirely apart from pedigrees getting a bump in price because they have superior gloss, structure, etc.  Mile High's got a big bump in price before anyone knew or cared who Edgar Church was because they were just incredibly well-preserved comics.  The Church story is interesting, but I don't think it adds anything to the desirability of a MH copy versus some other copy.  The best evidence of that might be DA rejecting MH copies of some key issues because he preferred better examples.  

Representatives of Heritage and CGC do think a good story boosts the value of a pedigree, specifically citing Okajima when discussing the Promise Collection.  

So what do you guys think:  Does a good story add significant value to a pedigree?  Outside of the Okajima's, any pedigrees where you think the back story boosts the values of even mid-grade copies by multiples (making them worth more than higher graded better examples that are not from the pedigree)?  

Edited February 8, 2022 by sfcityduck

[PDGray]

Absolutely I think they do add value to the pedigree.

As I think I mentioned in another thread regarding the Promise collection, there is something that really strikes me about that young man, Junie, losing his life and asking Robert to care for his funny books.  As a retired Soldier myself, it strikes home with me. The Okajima books also have a fascinating story to tell, regardless of the cover or title to me.  When I look in my comic room over to my single Edgar Church book I am reminded of the significance of that collection and its lasting impact on the comic collector industry.  

I view myself as a student and keeper of history.  That stands true whether its a comic book, my 1787 Family Bible, my family wooden chest (ca. 1850), or pretty much any other piece of history I have stored away in my house.  I view it as my responsibility to be able to pass on that bit of history to my kids and eventually their kids and so on and so forth.

So, it is the story that pulls me in more than the specific books.

 

PDG

[N e r V]

It’s a nice bit of history to know but I’m usually partial to certain peds depending on the era. White Mountain for example is good from 50’s to 70’s books and is one I will search out based on the expected quality. So stories might add something but the overall expectations of what you’re getting are really the main reason. The Church story of Mile High books never excited me much other than the sheer volume someone “accidentally” saved as if they were just there available for comic book history to enjoy. You couldn’t ask for a better job of saving something in grade even if the person in charge was thinking this might be something historic to do and I need to save these examples in high grade for future generations. Nope. Just dumb luck…

[KirbyJack]

I value the Gaines books above the grade.
I love the story, and the connection to the time, the place, and Bill himself.

[Straw-Man]

i have interest in the stories, but not enough to affect dollar amounts i'll pay.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 11:35 AM, PDGray said:

Absolutely I think they do add value to the pedigree.

As I think I mentioned in another thread regarding the Promise collection, there is something that really strikes me about that young man, Junie, losing his life and asking Robert to care for his funny books.  As a retired Soldier myself, it strikes home with me.

 

PDG

Heritage certainly agrees with you on the value of a good story.  For the Promise Collection, they love hyping the story ... even though they never actually tell it in any detail.  They even attempt to distinguish it from the SF story, which is virtually indistinguishable (soldier goes off to war, he dies, and his comics are preserved by his parents until they die), but don't explain why the the Promise story is any different.  

Brian Weidman, Consignment Director at Heritage,  made these comments during an interview of him and Matt Nelson (President of CGC) by Dino on Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 in July 2021:

Quote

 

Brian: “It’s an incredible story.  And I’m telling ya, to me, the story makes this one.  You know, we’ve heard about the Mile High for years, we’ve heard about Larson, we’ve heard about San Francisco, but this one has the best story I’ve heard in my life. … The most important thing to me is the story.  It hits a heart string. ... You are almost in tears when you hear the story.”

….

Deno: “This, this to me, is a hybrid between the quality and condition-wise of the Mile High and then the emotional story aspect of the Okajima.”

…

Matt:  “You nailed it!  That’s perfect.  That explains the dual impact of this collection.  You know, because you’re right, the Okajima just recently, the past couple few years, the price, the multiples paid for those have exploded!  And its due to the story and it’s so cool to see these collections finally being recognized for something they always were, but the story, I don’t know, magnifies it.”

Brian: “It does! It absolutely does!”

Matt: “It’s the Mile High collection, almost, with a story similar to the Okajima.  And I think another interesting angle to it is this is unique in that somebody asked somebody else to be a curator or a protector or savior of their comic collection in, like, 1950.  And so that is really unique because he held his promise and he held it until he was 94 years old or however old he was.  He held it the whole time.  It was more important to him to hold that promise than cash in and get the books, you know, within his lifetime. Because he was there with his brother 70 years, 60 something years ago, and went through that horrible thing with him and left knowing that promise was that important, you know.”

….

Brian:  "The story, to me, is more important than anything this collection has to offer.”  

 

 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:07 PM, Straw-Man said:

i have interest in the stories, but not enough to affect dollar amounts i'll pay.

Don't you own an Okajima?  Did you have to pay a premium over a similarly graded non-Okajima example of the comic?  That seems standard with the camp copies now.

[Straw-Man]

only this one, for the ped type-set.   i'll pay a premium for peds, have many, many times and will continue to do so; i meant the "story" behind a given ped doesn't enter into the financial equation for me.

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 12:52 PM, N e r V said:

The Church story of Mile High books never excited me much other than the sheer volume someone “accidentally” saved as if they were just there available for comic book history to enjoy. You couldn’t ask for a better job of saving something in grade even if the person in charge was thinking this might be something historic to do and I need to save these examples in high grade for future generations. Nope. Just dumb luck…

Edgar Church's story doesn't impress me at all - it is sort of depressing.  But the story of how Chuck essentially re-invented the comic market and changed collecting forever is fascinating.  Owning a MH is owning a piece of comic collecting history.

Edited February 8, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:19 PM, Straw-Man said:

   i'll pay a premium for peds, have many, many times and will continue to do so; i meant the "story" behind a given ped doesn't enter into the financial equation for me.

 

Not many people collect an example of every GA and SA ped (and I don't know if anyone's succeeded except you).  I think I understand.  I'm interpreting you as saying you are happy to pay a premium for peds, you just do not focus on what drives the premium when it comes to getting an example for your typeset?

[Straw-Man]

On 2/8/2022 at 3:24 PM, sfcityduck said:

Not many people collect an example of every GA and SA ped (and I don't know if anyone's succeeded except you).  I think I understand.  I'm interpreting you as saying you are happy to pay a premium for peds, you just do not focus on what drives the premium when it comes to getting an example for your typeset?

i recently changed a bit, and "one of each ped" will do the trick, as opposed to one in each era.  a single book for peds spanning gold/silver is now the self-imposed requirement.  yes, sir, the quality of the books, not their backstory, guides me.   church is best, so i'll pay a bigger multiple there, tho' his "story" doesn't enthrall me.  

[N e r V]

I stopped following the thread but was there ever a back story to the Promise collection? It’s such a dumb name I was kind of hoping that if more info. was released it might do like the Mile High name later being called Church at least some the time. I think people should spend more time thinking about how the name really relates to the collection vs egos or really just poor marketing. When I hear the name Promise now I think lots of nice books, some well over graded, on the high end price wise across the board. In other words the name didn’t seem to fit the consistency of the actual collection so for at least some the name now just kind of hangs there. No one could come up with a better name? 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 1:42 PM, N e r V said:

I stopped following the thread but was there ever a back story to the Promise collection? It’s such a dumb name I was kind of hoping that if more info. was released it might do like the Mile High name later being called Church at least some the time. I think people should spend more time thinking about how the name really relates to the collection vs egos or really just poor marketing. When I hear the name Promise now I think lots of nice books, some well over graded, on the high end price wise across the board. In other words the name didn’t seem to fit the consistency of the actual collection so for at least some the name now just kind of hangs there. No one could come up with a better name? 

Great questions!  

Heritage's story is so sketchy that to me it seems like a placeholder.  I get that the consignors wanted anonymity, but CGC were the ones who deemed it a pedigree, they must have been informed of all of the details in order to be willing to deem it as a pedigree, and a wise man said this:

Quote

 

“As much as the family wants their privacy, inevitably, people are curious in this hobby and will piece things together, which is fine.”

- Matt Nelson, President of CGC, Tales From the Flipside Ep. 180 (7/19/2021)

 

 

[jimbo_7071]

They don't. If I pay more for a pedigree book, I'm paying for qualities that the book has: white paper, good gloss, etc.

Mile High copies sold for 3–4 times guide because there were much nicer and fresher than all of the other books that dealers were calling near mint. Paying multiples for pedigrees really doesn't make much sense now that we have numerical grading and page quality designations. There could be some qualities not captured by those metrics, but not many, and not for all pedigrees.

Edited February 8, 2022 by jimbo_7071

[path4play]

Short story.  My old man had a big stash of GA comic books. I pillaged them and sold them off and went to college (no, not paid for college with the funds, sold them off, and went to college - two very separate events).

I started collecting again 12 years ago.

I love stamps, signatures, and markings on covers.  I like the back story.  Maybe its just me, but province >= grade @$.  I will pay premium for pedigree to an extent - but I also like collecting those that "never made it" to pedigree status for mostly province <= grade @$.  Like "Betty & Junior."  For me anyway, this is cooler and more interesting than without the sigs and vastly overcomes the grade, especially when cheaper.  Let's call it another dimension.  I can ponder the artist, story, publisher, grade, title/series, demand, etc.,... and ALSO who the heck were  "Betty & Junior?"  Anyone have another  "Betty & Junior" - book?  Would love to buy it.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by path4play

[MattTheDuck]

I very much enjoy the stories of the Pedigrees/collections, some of which are not only amazing but pretty inspiring to someone who's out looking for collections of books "in the wild."  This is the only Pedigree book I own (so far) and I don't feel like I paid a premium for it.  If I were faced, however, with a choice of two otherwise identical books, and paying a premium of some kind for, say, a Church book or an Okijima or a Promise, I wouldn't automatically reject the Pedigree book.  In the long run, I think it would be cool to own at least one of each of the various Pedigrees.

 

[Randall Dowling]

I am far more interested in the particular qualities of a given pedigree (page quality, condition, freshness, etc.) than I am in the back story of how the collection was assembled and why.  For me, the narrative is a curiosity, but all other things being equal, I pursue the best qualities of a book.

[catman76]

"pedigrees" for the most part are all mint or never or hardly read so I couldn't care less about the story or at all. I love the story I can see on a comic, names and stuff written on it, clipped or filled in coupons, creases and rips showing it was well loved, a water ring on it, folds showing it was rolled up and stuffed into a pocket. pedigrees are boring, who cares if a comic was bought and left stacked in a basement for 50 years. most pedigrees have no story to me

[Robot Man]

Yeah. I have to admit I am a sucker for pedigrees. Like Strawman, I have tried to seek out at least one copy of every pedigree. Some like Allentown, Hawkeye, Denver and a few others, I’ve pretty much given up on.

My preference are the ones with notable markings. I also seek out books from famous collections of noted collectors as well as artists and people who have contributed to comic fandom and file copies  

It’s for the grades, stories and the fact that for whatever reason, they were taken care of, and stored with care.

I have paid up a bit for some but overall bought the right ones at the right time for prices I felt comfortable with.

For me, it is a fun little collection within a collection. 

[sfcityduck]

On 2/8/2022 at 8:10 PM, catman76 said:

"pedigrees" for the most part are all mint or never or hardly read so I couldn't care less about the story or at all. I love the story I can see on a comic, names and stuff written on it, clipped or filled in coupons, creases and rips showing it was well loved, a water ring on it, folds showing it was rolled up and stuffed into a pocket. pedigrees are boring, who cares if a comic was bought and left stacked in a basement for 50 years. most pedigrees have no story to me

Cat, I'm not surprised some comics' evidence stories that intrigue you.  You are an artist which is a form of storytelling, your soulmate was a noted storyteller, and you tell great stories.  So I don't doubt that evidence of a good story would rope you in.

For me, some pedigrees have evidence on their covers of a very compelling story, most notably Okajima camp copies, and also a small select group of Promise Collection comics from about a four or five month period which feature the name "Armand."  So much so, that I set out to buy a comic from a title which, IMHO, is the definition of unsought and undesired, but which I was willing to pay whatever it took (which wasn't much in the relative scheme of things, but was undoubtedly a "world record" as Mitch would put it for that issue from an undesirable title) simply because that name was so beautifully displayed on the cover:  Stories matter for a few of the pedigrees.  And I really think the story that reveals the full name on that comic cover should be told.  

Edited February 9, 2022 by sfcityduck