Oh Man I Sure Hope the Comics Market Never Crashes as Bad as the Stamps Market 13 13

[Poekaymon]

On 3/1/2022 at 6:32 PM, EastEnd1 said:

That was actually pretty controversial at the time (and still is).  But the prevailing feeling then was that the creation of more high grade books would harm values by making such books less scarce.

But don't those previously high end books get even higher?  All it does is shift the bell curve up--unless you just refuse to press.

[kav]

On 3/1/2022 at 2:35 PM, Math Teacher said:

allows 6th - 12th graders to take their Chomebooks home at night.

Dune reference?

[Krydel4]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:16 PM, october said:

Not true at all. 

There are plenty of younger collectors (under 40) who are interested in esoteric golden age. The reason the collecting demographic of this stuff skews to 30+ is that it A) takes some time in the hobby to appreciate the rarity and appeal of something like Centaurs and B) younger collectors can't afford them. If it was just an ever-dwindling group of dusty old guys interested in this stuff, prices wouldn't be rising....except they ARE rising. They are going through the roof in fact. Prices on quality Fox/Centaur/Harvey/MLJ/Ace/etc issues have at least doubled over the past year and have never, ever, been higher. 

No offense to some of the posters in this thread, but these are the same tired demographic cliff, end of the world arguments the board has had for the past 20 years. Yes, at some point the perma-bears will be right, and the hobby will wither. But you won't be able to predict it with any kind of accuracy, you will miss out a lot of price increases along the way, depriving yourselves of an awesome hobby while worry about some distant, uncertain future crash. Just buy what you like, buy what you can afford, and you won't have to worry about the rest.   

I believe you over estimate the average 30+ year collector. Most of them getting out of school with $150000+ student loans are not going to be out looking for copies of Wonderworld. The GA market right now is being driven by new money looking to park it into a tangible asset. The dusty old guys (of which I am rapidly approaching) are shaking their fists angrily at the cloud cause they're being priced out of the market too. A low grade (1 or 1.5) GA minor key of any publisher starts at 4 figures now. All of the dealers in my area can count on their hands ( in most cases one hand) the number of people they could call who may have the means to purchase any of those books if they get them in and that number decreases as the prices go up. I am lucky I bought the books that I did, when I did cause I can't afford to pay today's prices to aquire them now. 

I don't like that GA books have morphed into commodities brokering now. I don't like that a comics intrinsic value is tied to the latest MCU release. Comics are cool. And there value should be because they are comics and everything that comes with that. But it's not that way anymore and it makes me sad. So in essence the hobby that many of us grew up with has gone away. It's something else. And I think that is the root of what a lot of us feel.

[EastEnd1]

On 3/1/2022 at 6:34 PM, Poekaymon said:

But don't those previously high end books get even higher?  All it does is shift the bell curve up--unless you just refuse to press.

Today we know that (well partly, I think demand has increased too since the mid-2000s)... but back then pressing was a whole new world to most collectors and the prevailing concern was that more high grade equal more supply and with static demand, lower value.  The immense controversy over pressing at the time probably also contributed to this feeling.  I'm sure you could find plenty of old discussion in the chat board archives about it.   

[Poekaymon]

On 3/1/2022 at 6:40 PM, Krydel4 said:

I believe you over estimate the average 30+ year collector. Most of them getting out of school with $150000+ student loans are not going to be out looking for copies of Wonderworld. The GA market right now is being driven by new money looking to park it into a tangible asset. The dusty old guys (of which I am rapidly approaching) are shaking their fists angrily at the cloud cause they're being priced out of the market too. A low grade (1 or 1.5) GA minor key of any publisher starts at 4 figures now. All of the dealers in my area can count on their hands ( in most cases one hand) the number of people they could call who may have the means to purchase any of those books if they get them in and that number decreases as the prices go up. I am lucky I bought the books that I did, when I did cause I can't afford to pay today's prices to aquire them now. 

I don't like that GA books have morphed into commodities brokering now. I don't like that a comics intrinsic value is tied to the latest MCU release. Comics are cool. And there value should be because they are comics and everything that comes with that. But it's not that way anymore and it makes me sad. So in essence the hobby that many of us grew up with has gone away. It's something else. And I think that is the root of what a lot of us feel.

Well said.  And the point regarding the plight of the millennial/gen Z finances is an actual meme at this point that a lot of older folks just don't  understand.  Still a lot of people with the bootstraps arguments who don't understand how hard inflation, especially housing and education, has outpaced wages.  It's already a defining characteristic of this century--and it's not getting better.  I'm trying to stay hopeful those people will buy my Wolverine books in however many years, but everything else?      

[Ride the Tiger]

In a zombie apocalypse a small .22 pistol will be worth more than an action comics 1. Just sayin.

[Poekaymon]

On 3/1/2022 at 7:36 PM, Ride the Tiger said:

In a zombie apocalypse a small .22 pistol will be worth more than an action comics 1. Just sayin.

There are more realistic scenarios than zombies where that is also true. 

[Gregd]

Interesting topic.

Put my 2 cents in- age 49. Read comics as a kid and loved them. Bought a 2000 book collection for $400 I think in 1999. Some decent 70s issues but for the most part, not that fantastic a collection- just bagged and boarded them. A few years later started collecting some keys but couldn’t afford to pay more than $75-100 an issue so was priced out of any major keys. Then I dropped out of the hobby for a while.

But then in 2015 I decided since I had some extra money I could now spend on the hobby I should explore it again. Jumped on the boards, started reading about the different genres. Fell in love with PCH covers and started buying them. Then I began buying some of the superhero issues I didn’t buy in the past. 

Recently have gotten the magazine bug. Never was a mag guy but the cool art that I loved on comics was that much cooler on mags.

My 13 year old and 24 year old son love the collection. They will be collectors, too. My 24 year old son has a few friends that collect as well (though my son is a San Diego music guy he says comics are  considered cool).

I think the hobby will be around for a while.

And…Many of my friends are going to inherit big sums of money from their parents 401k. They have asked me about comic collecting as an asset along with their stocks, crypto and real estate.

Me… I have to make my own inheritance (what my parents lacked in wealth they made up with affection). Hope to sell part of my collection as another income stream along with the usual 401k, pension, SS,etc. It will also give me something to do in my retirement. In the meantime, enjoying this hobby. So comic collecting has many parts to it- nostalgia, comic art appreciation, income potential, etc.

I have a feeling comic collecting isn’t fading away soon. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Gregd

[VintageComics]

Wouldn't the fact that there isn't a certification company for stamps have something to do with prices?

Also, EXPENSIVE stamps are still expensive. The Black on Magenta just sold last year for $8.3MIL and is now being offered for fractional ownership.

 

 

[William-James88]

On 3/1/2022 at 9:16 PM, VintageComics said:

Wouldn't the fact that there isn't a certification company for stamps have something to do with prices?

 

There is a certification company for stamps.

[MetalPSI]

On 3/1/2022 at 12:13 AM, 500Club said:

My impression has always been that the stamp collecting demographic was much older…?

My grandfathers stamp collection went for about 600k when he died in 2001

[VintageComics]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:23 PM, William-James88 said:

On 3/1/2022 at 9:16 PM, VintageComics said:

Wouldn't the fact that there isn't a certification company for stamps have something to do with prices?

 

There is a certification company for stamps.

I did a quick search. 

I saw a grading company but do they seal them in a tamper proof holder? Or do they just authentic and grade?

I checked on eBay and didn't find any certified stamps. 

[William-James88]

On 3/1/2022 at 8:17 PM, Gregd said:

And…Many of my friends are going to inherit big sums of money from their parents 401k. 

Awfully nice of the parents. While I am giving my kids every step up I can for them to fullfill their dreams while I live, and bring them to a place of similar comfort, I don't plan on leaving them anything if I die, aside from my stamp collection  I will spend it all as I live.

On 3/2/2022 at 12:43 AM, VintageComics said:

I did a quick search. 

I saw a grading company but do they seal them in a tamper proof holder? Or do they just authentic and grade?

I checked on eBay and didn't find any certified stamps. 

I checked on e-bay, wrote "graded stamp" and found this right away https://www.ebay.ca/itm/193734560493?hash=item2d1b7acaed:g:ASAAAOSwS2xfoGM0

There are different companies out there. Some authenticate and grade, but they place a picture for you to see what they graded. Like that, if you spot a difference, then you know that the grade does not stand. You can do that with a stamp since you can see all of it in the unsealed holder. It's been the accepted norm by the stamp community. But really, stamps are more simple than comics which need that extra bit of security when purchasing. With a stamp, you can even grade with a software (like this listing https://www.ebay.ca/itm/334115015280?hash=item4dcace8a70:g:IeYAAOSwjp9ddAg9) and then verify the grade on your end. And I will repeat, I do not see how slabbing a comic turns it into more of an asset than when it was unslabbed. All it does is ease a transaction. A comic you are keeping in your collection, even as an investment, remains an asset (either valuable or not) regardless of it being slabbed. Slabbing has nothing to do with it, it's just the interest in the market. People are into collecting comics now, they aren't into collecting stamps. So one market is booming while another crashed. Nothing more than that.

On 3/1/2022 at 3:16 PM, october said:

Not true at all. 

There are plenty of younger collectors (under 40) who are interested in esoteric golden age. The reason the collecting demographic of this stuff skews to 30+ is that it A) takes some time in the hobby to appreciate the rarity and appeal of something like Centaurs and B) younger collectors can't afford them. If it was just an ever-dwindling group of dusty old guys interested in this stuff, prices wouldn't be rising....except they ARE rising. They are going through the roof in fact. Prices on quality Fox/Centaur/Harvey/MLJ/Ace/etc issues have at least doubled over the past year and have never, ever, been higher. 

Yeah they have, but once again not all GA are equal. Lots of Fawcett and Quality books have remained stagnant or grown just a bit, be they higher end or lower end, for decades. I spoke to Harley about this and he truly believes that for Fawcett books, we are in that final collecting generation and it's easy to tell with rare books selling for similar prices to your average silver age spidey when those books outnumber them at least 100 to 1 in terms of rarity. But there will definitely be outliers among those books, as is the case with any collectible.  

Edited March 2, 2022 by William-James88

[Poekaymon]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:33 AM, William-James88 said:

Yeah they have, but once again not all GA are equal. Lots of Fawcett and Quality books have remained stagnant or grown just a bit, be they higher end or lower end, for decades. I spoke to Harley about this and he truly believes that for Fawcett books, we are in that final collecting generation and it's easy to tell with rare books selling for similar prices to your average silver age spidey when those books outnumber them at least 100 to 1 in terms of rarity. But there will definitely be outliers among those books, as is the case with any collectible.  

For me, I just have no connection to the older stuff.  It's much harder to break into the old true crime and war stuff than say moderns or X-Men and Hulk keys.  Less selling data and more difficult to grade raw.  Just more intimidating all around--and I'm at least a mildly-addicted comic collector.  I just don't even know where to start.  I look at the golden sales on here once in a while and can never figure out why certain war comics/jungle adventures/damsel/crime/western/horror etc comics are worth more than another.  They all seem pretty fungible--but I know that's just my ignorance.  Point is, I think that's a pretty tough mantle to take up, as opposed to some kid recognizing what a first appearance is and thinking it might be cool to have Wolverine's FA, or Venom, or whatever the most "desirable" Spider-Man he could afford was.  In fact, my 3 year old already likes Spider-Man, and he didn't get it from me--Marvel is just everywhere, so maybe that'll stick, but I think, say, Terrors of the Jungle would be a hard sell.  I'd personally be willing to try for a couple of the truly famous golden covers, like Crime SS 22 or Black Cat 50, but that's about it.  And I actually like this stuff.  Not trying to be negative--I really hope I'm wrong. 

Edited March 2, 2022 by Poekaymon

[Shrevvy]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:33 AM, William-James88 said:

And I will repeat, I do not see how slabbing a comic turns it into more of an asset than when it was unslabbed. All it does is ease a transaction.

Making transactions easier is the reason that slabbing a comic makes it more of an asset and tradable. Many on here speculate about the "Bitcoin millionaires (billionaires?)" flooding the hobby with their crypto currency pushing up prices. That does not happen in a market comprised of just raw comics. There was no price history on comics by grade until slabbing. GPA and similar services provides the ability to look at historical sales. That has never happened before on a wide scale. It could not. MyComicShop's raw 3.0 is very different from Mile High's raw 3.0. Even if we knew of all raw 3.0 sales of a particular book by various sellers, it would have been worthless given the various grading standards.

[William-James88]

On 3/2/2022 at 7:53 AM, Shrevvy said:

Many on here speculate about the "Bitcoin millionaires (billionaires?)" flooding the hobby with their crypto currency pushing up prices. 

Pretty certain this is false too. Honestly, I think that's just wishful thinking that the market is going crazy due to external forces since it denies our own fault in it. I've been in several conversations now where fans will be discussing a crazy price that a comic just got and speculating exactly as you say, only for a fellow boardie to join in on the conversation and say they bought it and explain their reasoning behind paying such a high price for it.

But I do get what you mean with the rest.

[Stefan_W]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:33 AM, William-James88 said:

And I will repeat, I do not see how slabbing a comic turns it into more of an asset than when it was unslabbed. All it does is ease a transaction. A comic you are keeping in your collection, even as an investment, remains an asset (either valuable or not) regardless of it being slabbed. Slabbing has nothing to do with it, it's just the interest in the market.

Professionally graded items are absolutely more of an asset. The professional grading process sets a value on an item that you do not get as a raw. Of course a Superman 1 is still a Superman 1, but if a seller of that book says it is an FN+ and you are seeing a VG tops then you have two radically different value points. An objective third party evaluation of the grade locks it, and it is a major contributing factor to value as well since the value point follows the grade. It also allows tracking of grades through services such as GPAnalysis where a market value can be established for books with a sales history through the "a comic is worth what someone is willing to pay for it" process. This is very different from old school approaches that I grew up with which focused on highly speculative guide book values based on even more speculative, and often highly optimistic, grades. 

 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/2/2022 at 4:08 AM, Poekaymon said:

I'd personally be willing to try for a couple of the truly famous golden covers, like Crime SS 22 or Black Cat 50, but that's about it.

Sorry, but I already have dibs.

[FoggyNelson]

Might be a good time to dabble in some cool stamps👍‼️

[RonS2112]

On 3/1/2022 at 5:39 PM, JollyComics said:

Correct. I will be 58 this Monday.  Time has flied by.  To be honest with you, the stamps are never highly demanded through my time but fews.  My uncle took me to Stamp Convention once. It was so dull, nothing was speculating and I didn't see anyone at my young age but to anyone who were over 35 years old with magnifying glasses or huge magnifying lens. I will never able to get rid of them but those were my non-treasure gift. My uncle is now 79 years old and was at Antique Roadshow 7 years ago. He disagreed with first dealer then met with second dealer.  Both dealers told him those stamps are not valuable anymore as it was usually valuable in early 1980's. He was very upset about it because it was his passion that is now "gone".

 

No offense to your uncle, but if his "passion" was derived from the perceived monetary value, then he was in the hobby for the wrong reason.  I collected stamps for a while as a kid in the mid/late-70s.  The cool part of it was the strange shapes that stamps came in from other countries, the artwork, the themes, etc.  At one point, I had a stamp for each president of the US, and a variety of rock artists that I liked.  It never occured to me what they might be worth.

Likewise for my comic book collection.  I have long runs of Marvel superhero books, going back to the earliest days.  I track their values as a curiosity, but the value isn't a primary driver.  Mainly because I never intend to sell.