Shill Bidding - Crooked Auction Houses and Shady Sellers 5 5

[darkstar]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:06 AM, jaybuck43 said:

I have no issue with an auction house/its employees bidding on a piece.  Take Vincent for example.  He will always try to buy a piece that walks in that he wants.  So if I show up with an Action 1, he may offer me $350,000 cash on the spot, and when I say, no I'd rather auction it and see what I can get, why shouldn't he be allowed to bid on it?  Heck, he's not doing himself any favors "bidding it up".  He bought it, so he has to deal with the higher price.  The issue only exists if you think/believe that he's not intending to actually buy it.  Remember, there needs to be two players in any auction.  Whoever H is bidding against, has to actually bid.  Otherwise H and his team would just be buying up all the material at inflated prices... and doing nothing with it.  And if it didn't sell, well we'd see that as well with it constantly showing up in auctions (and annoyed sellers not getting paid)  Which we're not.  

The point is to create what amounts to false sales points in order to influence perception of the market and create interest in substitute or comparable items that are also available for auction. This is exactly what Heritage did with graded videogames, except the initial sale wasn't an auction, it a was a buy it now accompanied by a press release. 

[William-James88]

On 3/3/2022 at 5:21 AM, Frank Castle 74 said:

Is it just me or does it seem like every time you're after a serious high-grade key it either goes for much less when you exercise restraint and way over fair market value when you decide to "go for it?" I've bid in three separate auctions on a New Gods #1 in 9.8 on Comic Link; the first time the book legitimately escaped me (I forgot to set a reminder on my phone to watch the auction); the second time (6 months later) I bid on another copy, I was suddenly and repeatedly logged out within seconds of the auction closing (I was attempting to snipe the book and the website repeatedly logged me out so I lost); the third and final time I decided to bid on this book was 8 months later. This time I decided to just submit a generous maximum bid 15 minutes before the auction ended; interestingly, 10 seconds before the auction closed, the item was bid up exactly below my maximum possible bid---coincidence? Yeah, right! Did you know that my maximum bid was $1000 over the fair market value? Comic Link used to be a legitimate auction website, but it seems like the current market is making everyone greedy.

Every single one of your complaints could have been adressed by simply bidding the most you'd pay for up front when the auction begins.

Even if there is shill bidding, you get to pay what you want. If you are not happy winning the comic for that high, then don't place that high a bid. 

[shadroch]

On 3/3/2022 at 11:48 AM, MattTheDuck said:

Yes, I'm sure someone is answering the phones, but they aren't the same people as those monitoring the auction.  This is why God created receptionists.

I'm going to guess that you have never called CC or the Link the night of an auction.  Perhaps you might try.

[BriD.]

I don't win many Heritage auctions but I've had 2 proxy bid Heritage wins that sold for exactly my high bid. I bid what I was willing to pay so I can't really complain. But it did make me wonder if Heritage can see proxy bids and has a way to make sure the item sells for at least the highest proxy bid amount. Someone could go higher during the live sale obviously, but Heritage would get the most possible for the book if no one else bid.

I know of at least one book that I won with a proxy bid that I got for a little under my high bid, so at least I know it doesn't happen every time.

[MAR1979]

The question is which Auction Houses are honest.  While it's plausible one may exist, none does. 

There are plenty of Auction House defenders on this forum I actually feel that is more disturbing that the auction house practices.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2022 by MAR1979

[shadroch]

On 3/3/2022 at 3:33 PM, Comics Over All said:

I've found MCS to be the most honest.

I buy the majority of my internet purchases from their auctions and have never noticed any shenanigans.   

On proxybid two years ago, I meant to bid $250 on an item worth about $400. I accidently entered $2500.  At the last minute I was bid up to $2201.

I explained to proxybid it was an accidental bid and they canceled it, but never explained how it got bid so high.

[Frank Castle 74]

For those wondering about the phone call to Comic Connect; it was an auction night and the person who answered the phone explained that the people who answer questions about shipping status had left for the day; he decided to look into it for me regardless. When I was on the phone, I could hear other people talking and commotion in the background--as if it were a busy night. He explained that my order would be shipped the following business day. I then asked if he wouldn't mind checking on the status of one more item (which probably irritated him) and that's when he CURTLY responded saying, "hold on, you're messing up my concentration, this auction is about to end and I have to watch it." He allowed his composure to slip because he became frustrated with my inquiries and--likely--blurted out what he did.

Again, what exactly was he watching and why was it so important? Unless you're personally invested in something or there is something at risk (like losing a client the maximum money possible for an item), there really isn't any reason to respond with such hostility.  

Edited March 3, 2022 by Frank Castle 74

[The Lions Den]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:22 PM, shadroch said:

I buy the majority of my internet purchases from their auctions and have never noticed any shenanigans.   

On proxybid two years ago, I meant to bid $250 on an item worth about $400. I accidently entered $2500.  At the last minute I was bid up to $2201.

I explained to proxybid it was an accidental bid and they canceled it, but never explained how it got bid so high.

[KCOComics]

 

I have had the most luck with MCS, though I've never had a problem with CC or CL. I've won a half dozen auctions at CL below my max bid. I've never actually won an auction with CC, but have bought books through their exchanges over the years. 

Heritage is a different beast. I haven't won anything in over a decade and the last book I did win was a VG DD4 for like $50 I think. 

I've gone after a dozen or more "biggish" books over the years and I've always lost, even when I've bid well above fair market value.  I have always been able to aquire those same books through other venues for far less than the heritage hammer. So I don't know if there is schill bidding or not, but something always felt off. I don't even look at their auctions anymore unless they are selling something really special (though I can't usually afford something really special). 

[Gaard]

I have no experience with CC or Heritage, but have won dozens of books from CL's auctions. I learned long ago to wait until the last few seconds to put my max bid in. Shill bidding or not, the chances of paying your max price is much greater if you put that bid in early. Yes, I speak from experience.

There's a big difference (and I'm looking at you, @William-James88) between paying your max price for legitimate reasons and paying your max price due to what you suspect is a little funny business.

[William-James88]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gaard said:

There's a big difference (and I'm looking at you, @William-James88) between paying your max price for legitimate reasons and paying your max price due to what you suspect is a little funny business.

I don't see the difference if the end goal is to get the comic at the price you set. Plus, how can you prove it's one way or another? If someone is worried of shill bidding, and shill bidding can't be proven, then why even bid? Feels like tilting at windmills. 

Edited March 4, 2022 by William-James88

[Frank Castle 74]

On 3/4/2022 at 1:10 PM, Gaard said:

I have no experience with CC or Heritage, but have won dozens of books from CL's auctions. I learned long ago to wait until the last few seconds to put my max bid in. Shill bidding or not, the chances of paying your max price is much greater if you put that bid in early. Yes, I speak from experience.

There's a big difference (and I'm looking at you, @William-James88) between paying your max price for legitimate reasons and paying your max price due to what you suspect is a little funny business.

It became suspicious when I attempted to snipe but was repeatedly logged out on CL. That had never happened to me before. 

[MAR1979]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gaard said:

I have no experience with CC or Heritage, but have won dozens of books from CL's auctions. I learned long ago to wait until the last few seconds to put my max bid in. Shill bidding or not, the chances of paying your max price is much greater if you put that bid in early. Yes, I speak from experience.

There's a big difference (and I'm looking at you, @William-James88) between paying your max price for legitimate reasons and paying your max price due to what you suspect is a little funny business.

Early bidding means more of a chance a wiener* measurement contest occurring.

*There are many words the more they are used or overused becomes less and less funny, wiener is not one of them.

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by MAR1979

[Upgrayedd2]

I followed several of the Promise Collection issues when they went up for auction. It was amazing to see the prices skyrocket. 

Then, within minutes/hours (?) of the auction closing, a lot of the comics were listed for sale (on the same auction site) at a higher price. Really made me wonder what happened?

[Upgrayedd2]

And here's one where the price inverted. 

In June 2021, X-Men #49 (9.8) sold for $36,000 on Heritage. There's one on CL buy-it-now for $19,999. Maybe I'm missing something.

https://www.comiclink.com/itemdetail.asp?back=%2Fsearch.asp%3Fwhere%3Dsell%26title%3Dx%2Dmen%2B49%26ItemType%3DCB&id=1531881

 

[Gaard]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:53 PM, William-James88 said:

I don't see the difference if the end goal is to get the comic at the price you set.

I see why we have differing opinions here. You believe that if someone sets a max price of $X, that's what they want to pay for it (what you describe as the end goal). But it isn't. The bidder is willing to go that high, but would rather not have to.

[William-James88]

On 3/5/2022 at 7:39 PM, Gaard said:

I see why we have differing opinions here. You believe that if someone sets a max price of $X, that's what they want to pay for it (what you describe as the end goal). But it isn't. The bidder is willing to go that high, but would rather not have to.

Yes you are right, we do differ in that way. I have been happy in this hobby for only ever paying what I want to pay. I would not place a bid higher than what I want to pay, it keeps me sane

[Bird]

On 3/4/2022 at 4:10 PM, Gaard said:

I have no experience with CC or Heritage, but have won dozens of books from CL's auctions. I learned long ago to wait until the last few seconds to put my max bid in. Shill bidding or not, the chances of paying your max price is much greater if you put that bid in early. Yes, I speak from experience.

this

I was hunting for a good deal on ST110 about two years ago. I ended up getting one on HA for a pretty good deal. I typically do not bid live on ALL items that I bid on but I do wait until live auction has started to place proxy bids, mostly so that I know where to focus my money. Plus it makes it tougher for that guy answering the phones to track all the sudden activity that late in the game.

[Frank Castle 74]

On 3/5/2022 at 11:19 AM, Upgrayedd2 said:

I followed several of the Promise Collection issues when they went up for auction. It was amazing to see the prices skyrocket. 

Then, within minutes/hours (?) of the auction closing, a lot of the comics were listed for sale (on the same auction site) at a higher price. Really made me wonder what happened?

It's just strange when this happens, right?

[NewWorldOrder]

On 3/3/2022 at 6:09 AM, Galen130 said:

These shenanigans are a large part of why the comic collecting industry is a joke these days…similar to couch traders screwing up stock trading the last few years.  It’s all about greed…nothing else.  Same thing with comic-related movies and shows.  It’s just pathetic…

After leaving ebay two years ago, I only buy comics/slabs for my PC from these boards…NO MORE AUCTIONS.  I don’t buy new comics/variants any more because it’s so expensive.  It’s a racket.  Nowadays, it’s mind over matter…I don’t mind because it doesn’t matter.  To me at least. 

You do realize that prices on the boards are derived from those GPA auction prices right?