Shill Bidding - Crooked Auction Houses and Shady Sellers 5 5

[Frank Castle 74]

Is it just me or does it seem like every time you're after a serious high-grade key it either goes for much less when you exercise restraint and way over fair market value when you decide to "go for it?" I've bid in three separate auctions on a New Gods #1 in 9.8 on Comic Link; the first time the book legitimately escaped me (I forgot to set a reminder on my phone to watch the auction); the second time (6 months later) I bid on another copy, I was suddenly and repeatedly logged out within seconds of the auction closing (I was attempting to snipe the book and the website repeatedly logged me out so I lost); the third and final time I decided to bid on this book was 8 months later. This time I decided to just submit a generous maximum bid 15 minutes before the auction ended; interestingly, 10 seconds before the auction closed, the item was bid up exactly below my maximum possible bid---coincidence? Yeah, right! Did you know that my maximum bid was $1000 over the fair market value? Comic Link used to be a legitimate auction website, but it seems like the current market is making everyone greedy.

 

A similar situation happened to me on eBay. This time I was going after a Doctor Strange 1 9.8 that was signed by Stan Lee. I decided to snipe the book at the last few seconds of the auction; I was seemingly legitimately outbid. The high bidder had won by $400--significantly higher than fair market value at the time (this wasn't unusual, the market was on fire and Stan Lee's signatures are gold). Here comes the suspicious part: I received a notification about 5 minutes after the auction ended that I was the highest bidder; this was absolutely puzzling. Apparently, the winning bidder had retracted his winning bid and the item naturally fell to the next buyer--me. So when I attempted to check out, the item was no longer available to purchase and had been removed from eBay. The following week, I saw the exact same item (same serial number and signature) on Heritage Auctions; I decided to just sit back and watch the action unfold (something seemed fishy). The book sold well below fair market value, and I felt as though I lost a golden opportunity for a great deal. Only something else, very peculiar, happened again; the same exact book--once again--had appeared a third time on Comic Connect--only two days later; once again, I monitored the auction, waited for the last few seconds, and submitted my maximum bid--which happened to be just above the lowest bid on the item. I had set a record for this item's price. Just another coincidence, right? 

 

One time I called Comic Connect and asked what the shipping status was on an item I had bought; the guy said "hold on, you're messing up my concentration, this auction is about to end and I have to watch it." I asked, "watch what?" To which he responded, "look I'm in charge of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can't be bothered right now." What exactly was this guy watching? Did he need to make sure he bid up an item just below the highest bidders' maximum bid? These companies are seriously sketchy, and there is a huge part of me that feels they are all part of a network that monopolizes and manipulates the comic book market. Am I the only one flabbergasted? Has anyone else had similar experiences?  

Edited March 3, 2022 by Frank Castle 74

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/3/2022 at 5:21 AM, Frank Castle 74 said:

Am I the only one flabbergasted? Has anyone else had similar experiences?  

No, and yes.

Not sure that I have seen Comic Connect called out for it before, but Heritage certainly has been, and there's no doubt that it occurs often on eBay.

Scumbags gonna be scumbags, I suppose.

[SOTIcollector]

From the Wikipedia entry on Hetitage’s chair and co-founder James Halperin:  “He and his businesses have been sued by federal agencies (including the FTC) multiple times for fraud, among other allegations, where he was ordered to pay substantial fees.^[2]”

I personally would be shocked if there were NOT sketchy dealings at Heritage.

Exactly what independent oversight is there to ensure that shill bidding and related shenanigans don’t happen at Heritage, ComicLink, ComicConnect, or eBay?  Pretty much none.  

[Galen130]

These shenanigans are a large part of why the comic collecting industry is a joke these days…similar to couch traders screwing up stock trading the last few years.  It’s all about greed…nothing else.  Same thing with comic-related movies and shows.  It’s just pathetic…

After leaving ebay two years ago, I only buy comics/slabs for my PC from these boards…NO MORE AUCTIONS.  I don’t buy new comics/variants any more because it’s so expensive.  It’s a racket.  Nowadays, it’s mind over matter…I don’t mind because it doesn’t matter.  To me at least. 

[shadroch]

Heritage set up shop where they did at least partially because shill bidding is legal inTejas.

[jaybuck43]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:20 AM, shadroch said:

Heritage set up shop where they did at least partially because shill bidding is legal inTejas.

No idea where you got that.  Shill bidding is illegal in Texas.  https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=16&pt=4&ch=67&rl=70  A licensee may not knowingly use or permit the use of false bidders at any auction.  

What Texas does permit is for the auction house, and its employees, to bid on lots in an attempt to win them.  So, if Heritage places a bid at auction to "Drive Up" the price and no-one bids over them, then by law they have to pay out to the seller and then they own the piece.  Perfectly legal.

Now, a fair question to ask I think, is what guarantee/oversight is there on max bids?  Meaning, can HA "see" my (and others) max bid on an item.   Because then, theoretically, they could use a bidder to "drive up" the price up to my maximum bid, knowing that my bid would bid over them.  Then if called on it by the authorities say "o we were just trying to win it too."  That's part of the reason  I just throw a small tracing bid out and wait for the live floor bids.

[shadroch]

On 3/3/2022 at 7:35 AM, jaybuck43 said:

No idea where you got that.  Shill bidding is illegal in Texas.  https://texreg.sos.state.tx.us/public/readtac$ext.TacPage?sl=R&app=9&p_dir=&p_rloc=&p_tloc=&p_ploc=&pg=1&p_tac=&ti=16&pt=4&ch=67&rl=70  A licensee may not knowingly use or permit the use of false bidders at any auction.  

What Texas does permit is for the auction house, and its employees, to bid on lots in an attempt to win them.  So, if Heritage places a bid at auction to "Drive Up" the price and no-one bids over them, then by law they have to pay out to the seller and then they own the piece.  Perfectly legal.

Now, a fair question to ask I think, is what guarantee/oversight is there on max bids?  Meaning, can HA "see" my (and others) max bid on an item.   Because then, theoretically, they could use a bidder to "drive up" the price up to my maximum bid, knowing that my bid would bid over them.  Then if called on it by the authorities say "o we were just trying to win it too."  That's part of the reason  I just throw a small tracing bid out and wait for the live floor bids.

Unless I have a real bad case of misremembering, the article Forbes did on Heritage many moons ago said that Heritage was based in Texas so that Mr H. could allow his employees to bid on items.  I'll see if I can find it, but my google skills aren't the best.

[SOTIcollector]

On 3/3/2022 at 9:47 AM, shadroch said:

Unless I have a real bad case of misremembering, the article Forbes did on Heritage many moons ago said that Heritage was based in Texas so that Mr H. could allow his employees to bid on items.  I'll see if I can find it, but my google skills aren't the best.

The Forbes article is cited in the Wikipedia article on Mr. Halperin.

https://www.forbes.com/forbes/2004/1227/156.html?sh=168bfa62e074

 

[WolverineX]

Nothing surprises me anymore.

[djzombi]

I mainly use eBay as a store, preferring "buy-it-now" items.  No shill bidding involved when it's not an auction listing.  
The other sites mentioned here all seem waaaaaay overpriced and out of my league by a long shot.  

[jaybuck43]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:32 AM, Comics Over All said:

What you just described is shill bidding, it's just not called shill bidding  Semantics.

I have no issue with an auction house/its employees bidding on a piece.  Take Vincent for example.  He will always try to buy a piece that walks in that he wants.  So if I show up with an Action 1, he may offer me $350,000 cash on the spot, and when I say, no I'd rather auction it and see what I can get, why shouldn't he be allowed to bid on it?  Heck, he's not doing himself any favors "bidding it up".  He bought it, so he has to deal with the higher price.  The issue only exists if you think/believe that he's not intending to actually buy it.  Remember, there needs to be two players in any auction.  Whoever H is bidding against, has to actually bid.  Otherwise H and his team would just be buying up all the material at inflated prices... and doing nothing with it.  And if it didn't sell, well we'd see that as well with it constantly showing up in auctions (and annoyed sellers not getting paid)  Which we're not.  

[shadroch]

How much of Heritage's auctions are consignment and how much is their own stuff?

[ThothAmon]

I don’t like the thought I’m being played as a chump by unscrupulous sellers (of which I’m certain exist), but what I don’t like to an equal amount is brand new contributors to the boards introducing themselves to us with innuendo and allegations (and unsurprisingly no direct evidence). Maybe take a little time to become known on the boards before muckraking?  That seems shady too. Just a thought. 

[alexgross.com]

On 3/3/2022 at 8:06 AM, jaybuck43 said:

I have no issue with an auction house/its employees bidding on a piece.  Take Vincent for example.  He will always try to buy a piece that walks in that he wants.  So if I show up with an Action 1, he may offer me $350,000 cash on the spot, and when I say, no I'd rather auction it and see what I can get, why shouldn't he be allowed to bid on it?  Heck, he's not doing himself any favors "bidding it up".  He bought it, so he has to deal with the higher price.  The issue only exists if you think/believe that he's not intending to actually buy it.  Remember, there needs to be two players in any auction.  Whoever H is bidding against, has to actually bid.  Otherwise H and his team would just be buying up all the material at inflated prices... and doing nothing with it.  And if it didn't sell, well we'd see that as well with it constantly showing up in auctions (and annoyed sellers not getting paid)  Which we're not.  

hm. you should have an issue with it. not sure why you don't understand that by permitting auction houses or their employees to bid on items, that you have just eliminated the need for 2 players. do you think that HA, CC or CL do not have access to what your max proxy bid was? it's their auction, their software, their back-end. 

i am not accusing any specific person of anything, to be clear. but there is an inherent conflict of interest in auction houses and their owners/employees participating in, and auctioning their own property in their own auctions. that should be plain for all to see. 

if halperin for example (hypothetical) wants to boost gpa on one of his keys, just put it in his auction, and win it back with a new all time high price record. its his store, so it doesnt cost him a thing. then put the book away for awhile. 

people used to use ebay because you were bidding against other people. would you still do so if ebay itself could bid too, with the knowledge of what you bid?? 

[Axe Elf]

I don't have any skin in the game, really, because I don't really participate in auctions--but this does seem like a blatant conflict of interest, and I'm surprised it hasn't been legally censured by now.

I play poker a lot, and I know that if a person is a licensed poker dealer in one state, they not only cannot play poker at the casino for which they work, they can't play poker in any other casino in the state.  If they want to play, they have to go to a neighboring state.

Seems like it should be the same for these businesses; if you want to buy something, you buy it from another auction house, not the one of which you are an employee.  If you don't like not being able to buy from that house, then you go work somewhere else.

[MattTheDuck]

While I suspect the OP's rant is probably generally true regarding shill bidding or efforts by auction houses to get the maximum commission on sales, this part "One time I called Comic Connect and asked what the shipping status was on an item I had bought; the guy said "hold on, you're messing up my concentration, this auction is about to end and I have to watch it." I asked, "watch what?" To which he responded, "look I'm in charge of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can't be bothered right now."  

is a little questionable.  It seems highly unlikely that a person who is monitoring a live auction and has so much responsibility is going to be answering the phone and chatting with some rando customer about order status.

[shadroch]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:55 AM, MattTheDuck said:

While I suspect the OP's rant is probably generally true regarding shill bidding or efforts by auction houses to get the maximum commission on sales, this part "One time I called Comic Connect and asked what the shipping status was on an item I had bought; the guy said "hold on, you're messing up my concentration, this auction is about to end and I have to watch it." I asked, "watch what?" To which he responded, "look I'm in charge of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can't be bothered right now."  

is a little questionable.  It seems highly unlikely that a person who is monitoring a live auction and has so much responsibility is going to be answering the phone and chatting with some rando customer about order status.

Not at all. They man the phone in case there are questions about the auctions about to close. With people having questions about the auction, the guy had no time to discuss a shipping issue.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 3/3/2022 at 12:55 PM, MattTheDuck said:

While I suspect the OP's rant is probably generally true regarding shill bidding or efforts by auction houses to get the maximum commission on sales, this part "One time I called Comic Connect and asked what the shipping status was on an item I had bought; the guy said "hold on, you're messing up my concentration, this auction is about to end and I have to watch it." I asked, "watch what?" To which he responded, "look I'm in charge of hundreds of thousands of dollars and can't be bothered right now."  

is a little questionable.  It seems highly unlikely that a person who is monitoring a live auction and has so much responsibility is going to be answering the phone and chatting with some rando customer about order status.

Yeah, that all seemed like BS to me, and I take it with a grain of salt.

[MattTheDuck]

On 3/3/2022 at 10:13 AM, shadroch said:

Not at all. They man the phone in case there are questions about the auctions about to close. With people having questions about the auction, the guy had no time to discuss a shipping issue.

Yes, I'm sure someone is answering the phones, but they aren't the same people as those monitoring the auction.  This is why God created receptionists.

[rjpb]

Most of what I win on the major auction sites I win for either my max bid or just below it. However, since I'm always looking for bargains, I'm surprised I win anything at all.

Ebay though is all over the place, I win with my top bid, I win with half my top bid, no pattern, so any shill bidding there is on a case by case basis.