Foxing: Can it Continue Happening After Grading? 2 2

[Professor K]

Hi, The question is in the title. Considering it is a chemical reaction (I believe) I wonder if foxing can continue after the book has been encapsulated. 

I doubt anyone knows for sure but any thoughts? Experience with graded books with foxing? Thanks

[grendelbo]

 

It could.

[The Lions Den]

On 4/9/2022 at 4:04 PM, Professor K said:

Hi, The question is in the title. Considering it is a chemical reaction (I believe) I wonder if foxing can continue after the book has been encapsulated. 

I doubt anyone knows for sure but any thoughts? Experience with graded books with foxing? Thanks

There was a similar thread from the Borock era about rust forming on the staples of books that'd been stored in a fire safe, but I believe this was likely due to the humidity present inside the fire safe. 

One thing I can say is that the older slabs weren't sealed as well. Both the outer holder and the inner wells of many of those books were pretty easy to open, and the outer holder almost always had significant gaps along the sides.

The new holders are much tighter, and all of the inner wells I've opened that were in the new holders were very tightly heat sealed. On the older slabs, the heat seal would usually peel right apart with a little coaxing; every one of the new books I've opened required cutting inside or along the heat seal to get the book out...  

 

 

[Professor K]

On 4/9/2022 at 6:21 PM, The Lions Den said:

There was a similar thread from the Borock era about rust forming on the staples of books that'd been stored in a fire safe, but I believe this was likely due to the humidity present inside the fire safe. 

One thing I can say is that the older slabs weren't sealed as well. Both the outer holder and the inner wells of many of those books were pretty easy to open, and the outer holder almost always had significant gaps along the sides.

The new holders are much tighter, and all of the inner wells I've opened that were in the new holders were very tightly heat sealed. On the older slabs, the heat seal would usually peel right apart with a little coaxing; every one of the new books I've opened required cutting inside or along the heat seal to get the book out...  

 

 

Thanks that's good info. I was thinking if foxing is caused by bacteria or fungus, or basically something that is alive. If so then perhaps it may continue to spread regardless of whether it's sealed or not. Perhaps even moreso in a sealed holder than out. 

But I just read this:

"Causes of foxing[edit]

The causes of foxing are not well understood. One theory is that foxing is caused by a fungal growth on the paper. Another theory is that foxing is caused by the effect on certain papers of the oxidation of iron, copper, or other substances in the pulp or rag from which the paper was made. It is possible that multiple factors are involved. High humidity may contribute to foxing".

Not well understood? Oh Jeez. With all the science advancements they still aren't sure? Well if scientists don't know I guess none of us here will. Unless, any scientists in the house? I guess the only way to know is to have a book with foxing in a cgc holder and observe it for many years to see if it got worse. 

[The Lions Den]

On 4/9/2022 at 8:24 PM, Professor K said:

The causes of foxing are not well understood. One theory is that foxing is caused by a fungal growth on the paper. Another theory is that foxing is caused by the effect on certain papers of the oxidation of iron, copper, or other substances in the pulp or rag from which the paper was made. It is possible that multiple factors are involved. High humidity may contribute to foxing".

One thing I do know is that different types of paper do react differently to adverse conditions such as high humidity, which does appear to be a catalyst for mold. And foxing is considered to be a type of mold...

[Pantodude]

I found this post from a year ago which incidentally discussed foxing, including whether it spreads after slabbing.   @GreatCaesarsGhost inquired and @kav explained, consistent with direct responses received by GreatCaesarsGhost from CGC (relaying advice from their "CCS experts"), that foxing is dead mold that CANNOT spread.  

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Pantodude

[Jaylam]

" ....that foxing is dead mold that CANNOT spread." Well then, that's a relief, but what about foxing that can spread, what's it called, zombie mold?  

[Pantodude]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:11 PM, Jaylam said:

" ....that foxing is dead mold that CANNOT spread." Well then, that's a relief, but what about foxing that can spread, what's it called, zombie mold?  

Well, if you follow the unassailable logic of the sources I referred to, if it's spreading it isn't the original foxing when slabbed.     But the question remains:  are the sources unassailable.  Leave that to yall to decide.   

Edited April 10, 2022 by Pantodude

[The Lions Den]

On 4/10/2022 at 2:03 PM, Pantodude said:

I found this post from a year ago which incidentally discussed foxing, including whether it spreads after slabbing.   @GreatCaesarsGhost inquired and @kav explained, consistent with direct responses received by GreatCaesarsGhost from CGC (relaying advice from their "CCS experts"), that foxing is dead mold that CANNOT spread.  

What I found interesting in the information I read was that foxing can be composed of multiple types of mold and that each type has distinctive characteristics. It also stated that foxing can spread, but that it doesn't actually harm the paper, it's just gross. 

But "Things That Have Mold" would be an interesting Jeopardy category, wouldn't it?   

 

[Pantodude]

I just chanced on this thread, but now I am intrigued.  It would be cool if CGC could chime in and confirm what was emailed last year.  But at least we have that response, which seemed like a firm, unequivocal response.   

[The Lions Den]

On 4/10/2022 at 4:49 PM, Mosh It Up said:

Grant Morrison fans know that the blue mold is the best 

A very interesting story which I've never read...but I did see The Matrix. 

[Tony S]

Foxing can be mold, but it can also be iron oxides in paper oxidizing.  Vintage comics were printed on cheap paper, they just basically ground up the tree.  If the tree grew where there was plenty of minerals in the ground - like iron - then there is iron in the paper. 

Bottom line is foxing - mold or  iron, it's all about storage conditions, especially humidity levels. No comic book slab ever - Generation 1 or Generation 2 - is airtight. So if slabbed books are stored in humid environments, staples can tarnish/rust, mold can grow, iron oxides in the paper can "rust". 

Edited April 11, 2022 by Tony S

[theCapraAegagrus]

CGC's cases do not prevent the comic from aging.