Book Sold With Missing Page - Who Is Responsible? 7 7

[kazoo]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Math Teacher said:

I never thought of this. Of course, when I buy a car, I never stop to ask, "Do the four tires come with this car?"

To some degree, I am learning just to assume everyone is dishonest. I'm a very pessimistic person, but this goes far beyond my belief system.

I think you may be coming away from this with the wrong lesson.  The seller made a mistake, but the problem is with the long length of time it took to get noticed.  I imagine everyone here would agree that if you had noticed the missing page earlier the seller would be obligated to make things right.  It is debatable of course how long a "reasonable" length of time to inspect a book is, more than 3 months already seems like a lot to me.

[Qalyar]

Neither you nor the seller are blameless here. Sellers ought to do page checks; many do not. Sure, they may have known about the page, but I bet they didn't ever open the book much less count pages.

But as the buyer, you had a responsibility to confirm the condition of the product you purchased. There's a case to be made when CGC finds something nine months later that you couldn't have reasonably detected -- trimming, subtle color touch, whatever. But you could have noticed a missing page; you didn't because you didn't check either. Obviously, if this was detected sooner, the seller should have refunded your money and taken the book back, or otherwise made you whole. But there's certainly some amount of time after which you can reasonably have been deemed to have accepted the product as you received it. Nine months kinda feels like the latter.

If I was the seller here, and perhaps depending on the money involved, I might offer you some sort of partial refund as a gesture of goodwill and to apologize for the issue we both failed to detect. 

[The Lions Den]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:08 PM, Math Teacher said:

To some degree, I am learning just to assume everyone is dishonest. I'm a very pessimistic person, but this goes far beyond my belief system.

I try to see things a bit differently.  

After all, I've met complete strangers who went out of their way to help me, but I've also had members of my own family try to rip me off. So, I've come to the conclusion that honesty really is a pretty random thing...

And now, I'll give you another scenario to think about: What if you purchased a slabbed book that was certified as a blue Universal label, but after you cracked it out you discovered it had a missing page? Would you blame CGC for being dishonest or is the original submitter to blame?

At least with your scenario CGC caught the missing page, but what if they hadn't?  

[Bird]

hypothetically of course

Edited May 7, 2022 by Bird

[zzutak]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:08 AM, Math Teacher said:

I am learning just to assume everyone is dishonest.

Respectfully, this is the wrong lesson.    An incomplete book (missing one or more leaves, panels, and/or coupons) might be improperly or inadequately disclosed for any of three reasons:

1.  The seller is intentionally hoping to deceive the buyer.
2.  The seller is fluent in the hobby but did not notice the missing material as a result of carelessness/laziness.
3.  The seller is not fluent in the hobby and has no idea about the proper page count or the significance (to grade and/or value) of any missing material.

I occasionally purchase Golden Age books from experienced sellers with an extremely limited knowledge of vintage comics.  Common page counts for GA books include 100, 76, 68, 60, 52, 44, and 36.  Sometimes, the page count stated on the cover accounts only for the interior; other times, it also accounts for the 4-page cover.  Protect yourself by being the more knowledgeable and conscientious party. 

[Dr. Balls]

I sold an X-Men 1 here on the boards a few years ago. I did the page count - but only looked at the story pages, and they were all there. When the buyer got it, he informed me that one of the house ad pages was missing.

(FYI, I had no reason to think I was being misled)

He said he was still interested in the book, so I offered him either a discount for the incomplete book or a refund. I learned a painful lesson: count ALL the pages.

[NP_Gresham]

Been there

Done that

Page count is 100% on me. I can count, I may not be good at micro- trimming and CT, but counting… 100% on me. As a buyer, I count, notify and return ASAP. As a seller I offer my apologies for my laziness and give 100% back right away and may let the buyer keep the book if it is not AF#15 or something.

Sorry this happened to the OP, but you have to own your laziness. If you wait this long you have to own it. But Let the seller know, and if they offer a return great, if they don’t I would accept an apology and leave it at that. I would however take note if the seller offers no explanation or apology and place them on my personal ‘do not buy list’. 

Just an FYI, very early on I bought an ASM#2 on eBay. I never really looked at it, but when I asked my LCS to sub it for me the owner told me ‘you know you are missing the pin- up page?” Lesson learned. I count now, EVERYTHING EVERY TIME! So I subbed the ASM #2 anyways. It came back 3.0 …. BLUE!  Anyone can make a mistake, don’t feel bad about that. Just learn from it and move on.

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by NP_Gresham

[Point Five]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:45 PM, NP_Gresham said:

Just an FYI, very early on I bought an ASM#2 on eBay. I never really looked at it, but when I asked my LCS to sub it for me the owner told me ‘you know you are missing the pin- up page?” Lesson learned. I count now, EVERYTHING EVERY TIME! So I subbed the ASM #2 anyways. It came back 3.0 …. BLUE!  Anyone can make a mistake, don’t feel bad about that. Just learn from it and move on.

Did you sell the slab? If so, *you* may be the subject of the next 'Who Is Responsible?' thread.   

 

[NP_Gresham]

On 5/7/2022 at 12:52 PM, Point Five said:

Did you sell the slab? If so, *you* may be the subject of the next 'Who Is Responsible?' thread.   

 

I consigned with Jimjum12 and it was disclosed as a 0.5 incomplete. I asked that it be cracked when sold. Also had a G-S X-Men #1 in an old red modern slab. It had major foxing. I could not determine if it was pre or post slabbing. It was stated in the sale as a 7.0 and sold as a 7.0 in a red 9.0. I disclose what I know and grade conservatively. I generally trust that others do the same. I left the X-men book in the slab because it was disclosed.

Edited May 7, 2022 by NP_Gresham

[The Lions Den]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:57 PM, NP_Gresham said:

I consigned with Jimjum12 and it was disclosed as a 0.5 incomplete. I asked that it be cracked when sold. Also had a G-S X-Men #1 in an old red modern slab. It had major foxing. I could not determine if it was pre or post slabbing. It was stated in the sale as a 7.0 and sold as a 7.0 in a red 9.0. I disclose what I know and grade conservatively. I generally trust that others do the same. I left the X-men book in the slab because it was disclosed.

You've just restored my faith in mankind. I applaud your honesty and I'm pleased to meet you!    

[Grendel72]

On 5/8/2022 at 1:18 AM, MattTheDuck said:

Boy, the standards expected of sellers around here are sure low.  I'll keep that in mind as new sales threads are posted.

I couldn't live with myself if I were the seller in this situation.

There is no certainty that the the seller is to blame. Despite the book leaving the buyer's hands for an extended period to time and handled by several pairs of hands, we discount all that because  the presser and CGC are reputable. What if the seller is also highly reputable or said that he did do a page count ? It's quite worrying that if the seller wasn't as well known, he becomes culpable without a shred of evidence. If OP's hypothetical case included to say that the seller did say he did a page count , would we see things differently ?

 

[Math Teacher]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:52 PM, Point Five said:

Did you sell the slab? If so, *you* may be the subject of the next 'Who Is Responsible?' thread.   

 

Hypothetically, I have the slabbed book, and it's quite clear on the label that the book is incomplete. When I choose to sell it, it will be obvious that is missing a page, as it is clearly printed at the top of the slab, right under the purple label. Hypothetically.

[Math Teacher]

On 5/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, NP_Gresham said:

Been there

Done that

Page count is 100% on me. I can count, I may not be good at micro- trimming and CT, but counting… 100% on me. As a buyer, I count, notify and return ASAP. As a seller I offer my apologies for my laziness and give 100% back right away and may let the buyer keep the book if it is not AF#15 or something.

Sorry this happened to the OP, but you have to own your laziness. If you wait this long you have to own it. But Let the seller know, and if they offer a return great, if they don’t I would accept an apology and leave it at that. I would however take note if the seller offers no explanation or apology and place them on my personal ‘do not buy list’. 

Just an FYI, very early on I bought an ASM#2 on eBay. I never really looked at it, but when I asked my LCS to sub it for me the owner told me ‘you know you are missing the pin- up page?” Lesson learned. I count now, EVERYTHING EVERY TIME! So I subbed the ASM #2 anyways. It came back 3.0 …. BLUE!  Anyone can make a mistake, don’t feel bad about that. Just learn from it and move on.

 

You say laziness, I say trusting people. It seems that both are mistakes. 

And, for the record, I never received an apology or explanation from the seller, and I was the one who told the seller that I was just going to let this go. It was painfully clear that the seller had no intention of trying to make things right, so I decided there was no point continuing to fight over it. Hypothetically.

Attached is a copy of the last email I sent to the seller. Strike this. I am sure that I will be accused of posting a fake email.

I feel that I have been properly chastised, and I will now slink away to do my penance.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Math Teacher

[jcjames]

On 5/7/2022 at 9:49 AM, Bird said:

I disagree. The major snafu is you submitted a book you did not inspect. You are more responsible here than either joey and/or cgc, who only process what you give them and bear no responsibility for not noting a missing page. You shoulder all blame for submitting a book with a missing page.

Blame for the earlier transaction when you purchased said book is completely different and does not move forward with the book.

Hypothetically.

 

Truth.

Unfortunately, you sent an incomplete book into the press/grade pipeline. The grade is all yours.

 

[MattTheDuck]

On 5/7/2022 at 1:51 PM, Grendel72 said:

There is no certainty that the the seller is to blame. Despite the book leaving the buyer's hands for an extended period to time and handled by several pairs of hands, we discount all that because  the presser and CGC are reputable. What if the seller is also highly reputable or said that he did do a page count ? It's quite worrying that if the seller wasn't as well known, he becomes culpable without a shred of evidence. If OP's hypothetical case included to say that the seller did say he did a page count , would we see things differently ?

 

I agree we don't know what the seller knew.  I don't see much difference between being dishonest and having done a page count and selling the book without disclosure or being incompetent and not having done a page count at all and selling a book that's defective.  If this were an actual seller, he or she would end up on my list of people not to buy from.  I suspect the seller did NOT know about the missing page because in most instances he/she is getting this right back, and who wants that kind of hassle?  It's an odd situation where a lot of time elapsed before the defect was discovered, and the seller certainly could not have been counting on that to prevent a return.

I also agree the book should have been checked by the buyer and "buyer beware" and all that, but a missing page is a pretty egregious defect which I would not expect someone to sell without disclosure.  (I can also say I bought a non-hypothetical raw book here on the Boards with a detached centerfold that was undisclosed, BUT the book was also graded relatively low and was inexpensive so I let it drop after a low-key person_without_enough_empathying out of the seller who is now "on my list.")   I can also admit that when I was a kid I bought plenty of books that have pictures cut out of the letters pages, missing MVS's, writing inside and a Marvel Feature #3 from an LCS that was missing at least 2 wraps - I didn't notice any of these things because I didn't develop a habit of paging through books before buying.  Dumb, but I love those books anyway.

So to each his own.  I have high standards, but everyone's free to hold the seller harmless and I'm glad to see them doing it publicly so I know about it.

[Math Teacher]

Caveat Emptor. I learned about this in HS Government, but I didn't apply it in this particular situation.

[shadroch]

 I'm torn on this.  If you had noticed right away, a full refund would be the answer.  Once a reasonable time has past, it gets nebulous.   If someone mentioned their concern and I was aware of a possible problem,I'd be okay with the refund a year or more later. But if an ebay buyer comes back,out of the blue, a year later I'm thinking I'm not going to be very receptive.

I'm ignorant about the pressing process but assumed a page count was included. 

 

[Poekaymon]

Way too long for any sort of remedy.  Regardless of whose fault it was originally, I would not take anything back after 9 months.

[KCOComics]

I'm a little surprised this discussion is so one sided. 

I'll put myself in the shoes of the seller for this one.  I have certainly sold raw books without counting pages. I usually flip through to make sure there are no clipped coupons, but I've never counted pages. 

If someone contacted me a year later and said the book was graded a .5 for missing pages, I would feel responsible and offer a full refund or offer a amicable solution. 

I know 9 months or a year is a long time,  but these are unprecedented times for pressing and grading. Given where TATs are I think 9 months is reasonable. 

I'm not a big seller, but I do want people to get what they paid for. 

[jcjames]

On 5/7/2022 at 3:20 PM, KCOComics said:

I'm a little surprised this discussion is so one sided. 

I'll put myself in the shoes of the seller for this one.  I have certainly sold raw books without counting pages. I usually flip through to make sure there are no clipped coupons, but I've never counted pages. 

If someone contacted me a year later and said the book was graded a .5 for missing pages, I would feel responsible and offer a full refund or offer a amicable solution. 

I know 9 months or a year is a long time,  but these are unprecedented times for pressing and grading. Given where TATs are I think 9 months is reasonable. 

I'm not a big seller, but I do want people to get what they paid for. 

I didn't see this as a question of whether the original seller is responsible for the CGC grade. I thought the OPs question was about who's responsible for the CGC grade, and that would be the one who submitted it.

Clearly the seller is responsible for not properly representing the book (unknowingly or not), but this was way past the statute of limitations for him getting any kind of recompense from the original seller, imo.

Unprecedented times notwithstanding, the buyer should still check his purchase within a reasonable amount of time, maybe a few weeks after receiving it. 
 

YMMV

Edited May 7, 2022 by jcjames