grendelbo Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 How does this book get a 3.0 if the MVS is missing? Even with the purple label? What aren't I figuring? Related, what's the highest Universal grade someone's seen on a book with a missing MVS or the equivalent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightning55 Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 What label were you expecting - Qualified? Or a Universal 0.5 (which it can't be because it has restoration)? It's already a Purple Label, which is worse for most people. So maybe a Purple 0.5? It does clearly state the stamp is missing. Could be the best looking 3.0 I have seen, presuming they are using the "apparent grade" and not knocking off for the resto. grendelbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowGradeBronze Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) I'm with you on this, Grendelbo. An incomplete grades 0.5 so maybe the restoration has dragged the grade up in this instance? It does present well. Edited May 23, 2022 by LowGradeBronze grendelbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzutak Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) I don't think Bo is questioning the Purple Label aspect. The book is very clearly restored, so the Purple Label is mandatory. I believe Bo's inquiry is really focused on the magnitude of the grade awarded. Can a book be designated as INCOMPLETE and have a Universal Grade higher than 0.5 PR? Absolutely! But can that Universal Grade be as high as 3.0 GD/VG? It's an interesting question, for sure. I've never seen a book designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC receive a Universal Grade higher than 2.5 GD+. Naturally, this doesn't mean that such specimens don't exist -- only that I've never seen 'em. Edited May 23, 2022 by zzutak The Lions Den and grendelbo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzutak Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) So much for my earlier post. A bit of digging revealed these examples. So I have now "officially" seen examples of books designated as INCOMPLETE by CGC with grades higher than 2.5 GD+ -- indeed, one with a grade as high as 6.0 FN. Frankly, I'm a bit shocked to learn that INCOMPLETE specimens can grade this high. Although this final book also is encapsulated with a Universal (Blue) Label, the fact that the label notes are capitalized suggests that it should have been encapsulated with a Qualified (Green) Label. It would be a whole lot easier to deconstruct CGC's grading rubric if there weren't so many "mistakes" floating around out there. Edited May 23, 2022 by zzutak grendelbo, buttock and Yorick 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funnybooks Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 interesting question @grendelbo learning something new every day grendelbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theCapraAegagrus Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 I... Can't... grendelbo and The Lions Den 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendelbo Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 12:36 AM, Lightning55 said: What label were you expecting - Qualified? No, Restored. I know CGC doesn't have a Purple-Green label. @zzutakactually addressed this not too long ago. On 5/23/2022 at 5:40 AM, zzutak said: Frankly, I'm a bit shocked to learn that INCOMPLETE specimens can grade this high. Yeah, me too. In IH181's case I've been assuming it's an Universal 0.5 if the MVS is missing. @Funnybooks see what we did - I can't find an example of an Universal labeled IH181 with the MVS missing. Well I can but it doesn't count. I'm just wondering if we've been grading these all wrong. On 5/23/2022 at 5:45 AM, Funnybooks said: interesting question @grendelbo learning something new every day That's exactly what I'm trying to do. On 5/23/2022 at 6:47 AM, theCapraAegagrus said: I... Can't... I feel ya. Funnybooks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendelbo Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 10:18 AM, grendelbo said: I can't find an example of an Universal labeled IH181 with the MVS missing. Actually I can. So would a 1.5 be the best grade for this book missing the MVS? The best grade for a Bronze Age specimen? And older books are given a little more leeway? Dunno. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvelmaniac Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 I do not have my books graded, however, for years I have said that until CGC releases their grading standards any question of why a book received a certain grade as opposed to other books that were the same and received different grades is all speculation on our part, we will never know. Having said that, IMO a missing MVS or missing Tatooz should not render a book incomplete and a grade of FR/GD 1.5 - PR 0.5 on an otherwise higher grade book since these items were designed to be removed. (unless it affects the story), along the same lines, if you are going to treat these items that way, why would a factory polybagged book missing the bag not be rendered incomplete? Just my opinion. The Lions Den, Not A Clone and grendelbo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 CGC should spring for green/purple labels to avoid books like this. grendelbo and The Lions Den 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funnybooks Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 12:25 PM, grendelbo said: Actually I can. So would a 1.5 be the best grade for this book missing the MVS? The best grade for a Bronze Age specimen? And older books are given a little more leeway? Dunno. so, what have we learned? grendelbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lions Den Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 This is what I've learned: 1) The 3.0 Hulk 181 looks quite nice. And a potential buyer will know exactly what they're getting (as long as everything else is correct). The 1.5 example would likely have been graded lower due to the overall appearance. 2) The other examples shown are either Golden Age books or books that were graded the typical 2.5 grade---very much what I'd expect to see for a book with a large piece clipped or torn out of the interior. And CGC has always shown some leniency toward Golden Age books... 3) Believe it or not, sometimes the graders do discuss things like this prior to arriving at a grade, the question usually involving the highest grade they could give a book with a particular flaw. Personally, 2.5 would be the best I could see for the 3.0 Hulk 181, but they likely cut it some slack because it's already been beaten down and kicked around... 4) Of course, I could be wrong about everything, and this could just be another example of the snake eating its own tail... grendelbo, Point Five and Funnybooks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendelbo Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 10:37 AM, marvelmaniac said: Having said that, IMO a missing MVS or missing Tatooz should not render a book incomplete and a grade of FR/GD 1.5 - PR 0.5 on an otherwise higher grade book since these items were designed to be removed. (unless it affects the story), along the same lines, if you are going to treat these items that way, why would a factory polybagged book missing the bag not be rendered incomplete? Just my opinion. I agree 100%. But should clipped coupons be given the same "leniency”? I'm thinking particularly those 1/4-1/3 of the cover coupons that are very common in older books. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Lions Den Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 1:06 PM, grendelbo said: I agree 100%. But should clipped coupons be given the same "leniency”? I'm thinking particularly those 1/4-1/3 of the cover coupons that are very common in older books. At my current job, the only thing that's consistent is our inconsistency... marvelmaniac and grendelbo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 (edited) On 5/23/2022 at 10:06 AM, grendelbo said: I agree 100%. But should clipped coupons be given the same "leniency”? I'm thinking particularly those 1/4-1/3 of the cover coupons that are very common in older books. Where do you draw the line? If a missing MVS is okay, how about a missing pin-up page? What about the couple of MVS's that actually affect the story. I can't give an example but I remember there were a few. I have a few GA books where someone stripped out all the ad pages. Surely you can't think those books should be graded as if all the pages were there. Edited May 23, 2022 by shadroch grendelbo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grendelbo Posted May 23, 2022 Author Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, shadroch said: Surely you can't think those books should be graded as if all the pages were there. No, but I think @marvelmaniacbrought up a good point - Tattooz and MVS were designed to be removed. So too were coupons. So too were pin-ups. And 3-D glasses. On 5/23/2022 at 12:51 PM, shadroch said: Where do you draw the line? Exactly. And what is a fair and consistent grade for what's missing? If something's missing that publishers didn't intend, say Wolverine from the last panel of IH180, it's a different story. FR/PR just seems harsh for some books, especially if what's missing doesn't effect the story or artwork. Funnybooks and Point Five 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 I disagree. I think a cut coupon is worse than minor color touch, but better than trimming. Banroy Clothing 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funnybooks Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 color touch is meant to deceive trimming is most likely meant to deceive cutting out a coupon or removing tattos or using 3d glasses was the intention of the manufacturer $.02 Point Five, marvelmaniac and grendelbo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 Color touch is usually meant to improve a books look. Extending your arguement, the manufacturer intended people to read the book so why deduct for creases, and so on. The manufactuer didn't intend books to kept in mint shape so perhaps they should be punished. The nice thing is if you want to pay full value for books with clipped coupons, no seller will try to stop you. It would be nice, after years of buying plods and glods at discounts for the market to decide they are worth more. The Lions Den 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
