C2E2 Variant Drama 24 24

[MGH]

On 8/25/2022 at 8:21 AM, FFB said:

Black Flag is the one who had (and violated) the Exclusives contract with Marvel that prohibited them from doing this in the first place.  I doubt that CGC knew (or perhaps "realized" is a better word) that Black Flag was doing something unlawful when they made acetate versions.  I don't think CGC would have willingly gone along with the plan if they realized that what Black Flag was doing was illegal, as that would have made CGC potentially liable for aiding and abetting copyright infringement (which has civil AND criminal liability).  

All cgc has to do when receiving a  book they hadn't seen before was check the barcode and they would have known straight away it was an augmented version of the previous variant,  not a new comic 

This is something I personally assumed cgc does as part of their verification process.  

 

Evidently,  they do not 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/23/2022 at 2:57 PM, Ed Hanes said:

well, you would have to take an extensive poll to apply a statistical application (probably a gaussian distribution and adjust for major bias, it would be difficult given the amount of feedback bias exhibited on this thread), and one of the raw only comic collecting community too (which would help with bias)...as well as those who don't have anything to do with these boards. My sense is that you used 99.9% the way people use the word 'most'..but still without any substantial evidence/data and more as anecdotally

as per the latter...the problem I see with your argument is that CGC is a grading company, they hand out grades and hence, you are trusting 'their grade' ..whether or not they choose to grade a 'counterfeit' or non authentic (BTW, these terms are subject to bias too) has no bearing on the grade of a say,  an Amazing Spiderman 14 with no acetate cover . The only thing that is called into question is what they choose to grade.  Now, I understand the problem with the 9.9, 10.0 grading..considering how cincy they are with these grades. But if they wanted to start grading high school reproductions of classic comics and put them in a slab,  I still don't see the conflict of interest.

 

But to be clear, I also don't understand why CGC would want to expose themselves to this aggravation ...it's an extremely niche component..and by doing this service it still has no effect on their bottom line (financially) 

 

and also, I don't understand the appeal of acetate covers 

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/24/2022 at 9:00 AM, CGC Mike said:

Shame on me for thinking we are all grown ups here.  I thought I would be able to release a few spoon words so people might be able to say D ick Tracy etc...  After viewing multiple threads, I now see I have made a mistake.   I have added them back to the list and removed the comment from your location.

Same situation as the Cornfield posting. Looks like you and CGC both learned something from this thread!

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:25 PM, awakeintheashes said:

Any person who says that about themselves is not very connected. 

The people who are actually "connected" would research the boards and provide information on them rather than saying something like, "I didn't even know this place existed!" You would want more outreach to/from the boards than to just question the forum's existence.

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/24/2022 at 9:14 PM, taro90 said:

Saw it on Instagram. Here's the short version. In July of 2021, a CBCS exclusive Signature Series Dealer/Facilitator had 7 submissions. The submission to CBCS consisted of a combination of non signed and witnessed signed books to be graded. Apparently, all of the books have now been lost. This is what the Dealer/Facilitator was told by CBCS' president after getting the runaround from CBCS' customer service for months. The CBCS president also mentioned that the reason the books were "missing" or "lost," was that they had sent the books out-of-state to an employee's home, where the employee could logged the books into CBCS' system. Then the employee would reshipped the books back to CBCS' Dallas office for grading. They did this because they were behind with their TAT. There were 367 books in total that were lost, and these were the Dealer/Facilitator's customer's books. I guess that's why Steve B. bailed on them.....

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 8/24/2022 at 9:41 PM, szav said:

Hmmm.... Black Flag....Red Flag.....Black Flag....Blackstone....

[Shazbot]

On 8/24/2022 at 2:27 PM, jsilverjanet said:

A lot of times when I goggle info on a particular book (like how to tell 1st prints or stuff like that) usually what comes up is a CGC thread from before 

 

Yeah, this is how I made my way here. I often see these boards as a top search result when I Google. Maybe I'm just too not-connected.

[FFB]

On 8/24/2022 at 5:44 PM, mattn792 said:

Because that was clearly my point 

I understand that, but it was *my* point in my original post, which you were responding to.  

[FFB]

On 8/24/2022 at 5:40 PM, wombat said:

You realize CGC has come out and said they knew exactly what they graded, right? Forget the fact they shouldn't have put this book in a blue label and sold grades on top of that. 

Not only do I realize that, I actually quoted Mike's comment on that exact point to bump it back to the forefront of the discussion a dozen or so pages back.  

What I think happened is that whoever at CGC was talking to Black Flag and Crain about the acetate deal had no clue that it would be infringement.  They are probably in a business function, not a legal function, and did not bother to run it by CGC's lawyer.  Or, perhaps they did, and CGC's lawyer does not have any expertise with intellectual property or licensing issues and gave it a green light. 

I look at this from a Hanlon's Razor perspective.  I believe that Black Flag and CGC both were so in love with their idea that they didn't realize how illegal it was or what a poopstorm it would cause.  I can't imagine that they did this with full knowledge that it was illegal and that Marvel would push back on it.  What would be the point of that?  

No, this entire situation reeks of both ignorance and arrogance in equal measures.  

Edited August 25, 2022 by FFB

[FFB]

On 8/24/2022 at 8:25 PM, MGH said:

All cgc has to do when receiving a  book they hadn't seen before was check the barcode and they would have known straight away it was an augmented version of the previous variant,  not a new comic 

This is something I personally assumed cgc does as part of their verification process.  

 

Evidently,  they do not 

I'm sure they knew what it was in that regard, without having to check the barcode.  I believe them when they say they knew exactly what they were grading, and to an extent, I agree that they knew exactly what they were grading.  It was an acetate, aftermarket cover stapled on to an already-released comic book that didn't sell through the first go-around.  

What I do not believe, and won't believe unless someone from CGC were to admit it out loud, is that they knowingly aided and abetted Black Flag in infringing Marvel's intellectual property.  I think CGC did not realize that what they were doing was illegal, either because they got bad legal advice or no legal advice on the matter before giving the project the go-ahead.  

[shadroch]

That all well, but it doesn't explain the grades the submitted books were given.  Thats the much bigger issue, to me.

[MGH]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:35 PM, FFB said:

I'm sure they knew what it was in that regard, without having to check the barcode.  I believe them when they say they knew exactly what they were grading, and to an extent, I agree that they knew exactly what they were grading.  It was an acetate, aftermarket cover stapled on to an already-released comic book that didn't sell through the first go-around.  

What I do not believe, and won't believe unless someone from CGC were to admit it out loud, is that they knowingly aided and abetted Black Flag in infringing Marvel's intellectual property.  I think CGC did not realize that what they were doing was illegal, either because they got bad legal advice or no legal advice on the matter before giving the project the go-ahead.  

 

Cgc grading it  is not illegal.    But recognising it as a legitimate book was pretty stupid.   

[MGH]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:42 PM, shadroch said:

That all well, but it doesn't explain the grades the submitted books were given.  Thats the much bigger issue, to me.

That's explained by them only grading  the acetate cover and ignoring the actual comic it was applied  to post production ..   

That in itself blows my mind because typical ( correct)  procedure  would be to grade the comic  as if the acetate  cover wasn't attached..   And apply a green label to recognise the score ignores   the damage caused by the extra staple holes 

Edited August 25, 2022 by MGH

[FFB]

On 8/25/2022 at 7:45 AM, MGH said:

 

Cgc grading it  is not illegal.    But recognising it as a legitimate book was pretty stupid.   

CGC certifying a book as genuine might be seen as "aiding and abetting" Black Flag in a scheme to market the infringing material for financial gain.  Aiding and abetting has an incredibly broad definition under the law.  If what Black Flag did met the criteria for criminal copyright infringement, then CGC certifying the book as genuine might very well be illegal and could be seen as aiding and abetting Black Flag in their own violation.  

[shadroch]

On 8/25/2022 at 7:50 AM, MGH said:

That's explained by them only grading  the acetate cover and ignoring the actual comic it was applied  to post production ..   

That in itself blows my mind because typical ( correct)  procedure  would be to grade the comic  as if the acetate  cover wasn't attached..   And apply a green label to recognise the score ignores   the damage caused by the extra staple holes 

No, it is not.

[Stefan_W]

My view on this topic is pretty straightforward. 

First, yes CGC should have given these books a green label to begin with. 

Second, I am very glad to see that CGC changed their stance to the correct one. A lot of times when mistakes like this are made companies continue to refuse to acknowledge it or deal with it. It is better to eat some crow than triple or quadruple down on a mistake. 

Aside from this I don't care much one way or another since I do not chase books like this. 

[FFB]

On 8/25/2022 at 8:11 AM, Stefan_W said:

My view on this topic is pretty straightforward. 

First, yes CGC should have given these books a green label to begin with. 

Second, I am very glad to see that CGC changed their stance to the correct one. A lot of times when mistakes like this are made companies continue to refuse to acknowledge it or deal with it. It is better to eat some crow than triple or quadruple down on a mistake. 

Aside from this I don't care much one way or another since I do not chase books like this. 

The green label is an acceptable compromise under the circumstances, but in an ideal world, they should have refused to certify it at all.  What is the point in certifying a bootleg?  It isn't "genuine."  

But since we live in the real world instead of an ideal world, I guess I can live with the green label.  

[MetalPSI]

It isnt a compromise 

A green label is what those books ARE

[Dr. Balls]

On 8/25/2022 at 11:16 AM, The Meta said:

It isnt a compromise 

A green label is what those books ARE

CGC is actually getting pretty lucky with Black Flag taking most of the heat and deflecting the fact that:

A) the book should be a GLOD and

B) there is some seriously hinkey stuff going on behind the 9.9 and 10 grades.

We still talk about those two things, but they don’t seem to be sticking as much.

[MetalPSI]

On 8/25/2022 at 1:27 PM, Dr. Balls said:

CGC is actually getting pretty lucky with Black Flag taking most of the heat and deflecting the fact that:

A) the book should be a GLOD and

B) there is some seriously hinkey stuff going on behind the 9.9 and 10 grades.

We still talk about those two things, but they don’t seem to be sticking as much.

Thats because people are stupid 

Let them be stupid, the rest of us know what to do