Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1959) The Uphill Climb 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

Brave and the Bold #28!

Part Two:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

Brave and the Bold #28!

Part Three:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

Brave and the Bold #28!

Part Four:

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

Brave and the Bold #28!

Part Five:

[Zonker]

We shouldn't underestimate the importance of the Justice Society of America from the Golden Age All-Star Comics as providing a template for the JLA.

And the JSA In All-Star Comics also featured book-length stories, broken up into chapters.

[Prince Namor]

We get comments from past threads...

On 9/23/2022 at 8:07 PM, sfcityduck said:

This is one wacky post as you insinuate that Kirby came up with the idea for the Living Eraser. Aside from the fact that Kirby's supposed "prototype" (1) was not a supervillain, (2) appeared in a relatively obscure Harvey comic that Stan Lee likely never read, and (3) bears no resemblance to the Marvel villain the "Living Eraser" in powers (Kirby's character erased himself not others), look or feel, there's a major flaw in your "prototype" analysis that appeared 10 years ealier in 1949 in one of the popular superhero titles ever published:

You try waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay to hard to minimize Stan Lee.  If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

Yeah, actually my comment towards it was simply "Hmmm..."

But I'll be glad to respond more clearly to your misguided post...

1.  This is one wacky post as you insinuate that Kirby came up with the idea for the Living Eraser.  Even without Black Cat Mystic #59, Kirby DID come up with The Living Eraser. Stan never wrote FOR Jack Kirby. We've SEEN what Stan did pre-Kirby. And we've seen what Jack did pre-Lee. And Black Cat Mystic #59 should looks more like something that would lead to that idea than anything Stan did previously. If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

2.  Aside from the fact that Kirby's supposed "prototype" (1) was not a supervillain So? Realistically many of Marvels 'villains' were simply misunderstood, and came from non-villain beginnings. If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

3.  (2) appeared in a relatively obscure Harvey comic that Stan Lee likely never read, and Obscure? They were creating more original material than Marvel was. And once we see the sales numbers, they were outselling Marvel. And as far as Stan never reading it - are you joking? Marvel's whole m.o. was to see what the competition was doing and copy it. If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

4. bears no resemblance to the Marvel villain the "Living Eraser" in powers (Kirby's character erased himself not others), look or feel,  It doesn't have to. (Though it DOES - they're both able to erase a BEING) It's Kirby being creative in 1957. The same as he would be creative his entire career. It's to show how consistently he came up with creative ideas and sometimes those ideas could be similar. Pretty easy conclusion to come to for most people. But keep trying. I wouldn't want you to lose any sleep over Stan not getting the credit he stole. 

5. there's a major flaw in your "prototype" analysis that appeared 10 years ealier in 1949 in one of the popular superhero titles ever published:   Well, considering I never claimed him to be a 'prototype', that's YOUR embellishment, and he certainly has more in common with the Living Eraser than what YOU posted. If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

And lastly I posted Stan's BS creation origin. Most people looking at it objectively, can see it's nonsense.

That's not outcome oriented, that's an accumulation of FACTS. 

On 7/26/2022 at 4:45 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY OF 1957!

Black Cat Mystic #59 - Cover - Jack Kirby art... and Hmmm.... 

 

 

 

 

 

[shadroch]

Anyone looking for the perfect mood music for this thread might try Simon and Garfunkles "The Boxer". 

[Prince Namor]

AS 1959 COMES TO AN END...

Kirby was making quite a team with Ayers, but that relationship would soon cause a problem with Stanley. Outselling him would hurt his pride, and out creating him was just obvious, but once they punctured his ego... by taking CREDIT for the work... Stanley would have to retaliate....

 

Even though Ditko seemed to be overlooked by Marvel compared to Kirby at the time (unlike how it's romanticized), and granted that had a lot to do with how proven and successful Kirby had been throughout his career (especially at a publishing giant like DC, though certainly now at Marvel as well); Sturdy Steve Ditko would have two things happen in his favor in 1960 that would change his fate with Marvel...

The first is that the following month, he would co-create the superhero Captain Atom for Charlton Comics (which would place it at #48, the ONLY Charlton title in that Top ranking!), which moderate as that success may be, was probably very exciting for Charlton (and Ditko) and would lay the groundwork for what he could do on an adventure title.

The second is that he would start to get letters to Marvel, praising his work... and that's a whole other story behind the inside workings of how it all plays out... 

It's only going to get more interesting from here on....

[sfcityduck]

On 9/26/2022 at 3:24 AM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

It's interesting to see the lengths that people went to, in order to NOT see the influence that the Challengers of the unknown had on the history of superhero comics... even as simple as the first cover of the Justice League of America in Brave and the Bold #28...

....

The fact that Kirby INFLUENCED its concept - a team of heroes in modern times battling out of this world adventures -  is covered up because it exposes the nonsense that Lee spun to make himself a celebrity. It needed to be covered up to help Lee's fairy tale, one of his few successful ones, that HE was the genius behind it all. 

.

 

More nonsense.  Just because Kirby drew a subject does NOT mean he invented that subject or influenced everyone who came after. In all likelihood, it just means that Kirby was himself influenced by some earlier pop culture reference. Most likely, Kirby, who worked on "giant monster" comics, was "inspired" by the 1955 giant monster movie "It Came From Beneath the Sea" that had come out a few years earlier:

In any event, BB 28 features an alien STARFISH like creature with an eye where its mouth should be.  Showcase 12 is just a giant octopus like in "It Came From Beneath the Sea." Entirely different concepts. 

P.S. Do you know how many octopus covers there are in the world of Comics. So many its a genre GA collectors collect: 

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nEMR-sUqojg/T-U4sVbnGnI/AAAAAAAAGYw/uov63euYDqM/s1600/famous.funnies-215.jpg

Does this mean Kirby was "influenced" by Frazetta?

Or Baker?

Again, no. You are trying waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard again.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

More nonsense.  Just because Kirby drew a subject does NOT mean he invented that subject or influenced everyone who came after.

Straw man. Never said that. Should I just make up something you said to fit what I want to say? If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

In all likelihood, it just means that Kirby was himself influenced by some earlier pop culture reference. Most likely, Kirby, who worked on "giant monster" comics, was "inspired" by the 1955 giant monster movie "It Came From Beneath the Sea" that had come out a few years earlier:

I'm sure he was. Just like JLA was influenced by Challengers. 

But I wasn't there. You weren't there. Let's hear what someone who WAS there had to say:

Per Bob Beerbohm: 

When I was interviewing Irwin Donenfeld, DC publisher 1953-1968, over the course of a few years 1997-2000 totaling some 18 audio taped hours, one of the many topics we covered and talked extensively about was his idea of a new try-out comic book dubbed Showcase - and its impacts regarding Flash, Challengers of the Unknown, etc covering most all the early issues. As well as when Irwin converted Brave & Bold in to a similar vehicle.

Being groomed by his father Harry Donenfeld to become DC publisher 1953-1968, Irwin was the one - only one - who green-lighted Challs almost right from the git-go. Irwin made all the decisions with all DC comic books 1953 till he was pushed out by Jack Liebowitz...

 

...From Irwin's perspective he said to me, it was Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown which showed the way via hard sales for super heroic revivals to be possible...The real-life published facts "on the ground" bear witness that Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown had some six solo issues before Flash 105 hit the stands in 1959...According to Irwin Donenfeld, Challengers of the Unknown led directly for Justice League of America to be tested in The Brave and the Bold.

So... If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

In any event, BB 28 features an alien STARFISH like creature with an eye where its mouth should be.  Showcase 12 is just a giant octopus like in "It Came From Beneath the Sea." Entirely different concepts. 

Yeah, except the covers are still similar. Not sure how you're the only one who can't see that and instead take it in a completely different direction...

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

P.S. Do you know how many octopus covers there are in the world of Comics. So many its a genre GA collectors collect: 

Straw man. You are trying waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard again.

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

Does this mean Kirby was "influenced" by Frazetta?

Everyone was influenced by Frazetta. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:16 AM, sfcityduck said:

Or Baker?

Again, no. You are trying waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too hard again.

Obviously not. I'll take Irwin Donenfeld, DC publisher 1953-1968 and his word over yours any day. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/26/2022 at 4:05 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS DECEMBER 1959

Where was I?

Oh yeah, Brave and the Bold #28! The other thing that this issue does is find a way to tell a full story... they do it by breaking it down into chapters - the concept of a full story in a comic is still unsure at this point - but its also something they got from Kirby's Challengers who did this a number of times. 

But it brings it out and it would eventually become the way...

 

To quote Joseph Welch: "Have you no decency, sir?  Have you no sense of decency?"

BB 28 was written by Gardner Fox. You are now accusing Gardner frigging Fox of ripping off Jack Kirby on how to write a superhero team comic?  And a JLA story at that!?! Unbelievably ignorant!

FYI: Gardner Fox wrote many of the JSA stories in All-Star Comics. In fact, he wrote the JSA's FIRST adventure in All-Star 3 way back in 1940.  And guess what?  It was a full comic book length story with multiple chapters.  Yet you think that book length comic stories in superhero team comics were "still unsure" at the time of BB 28?  Guess what? You're wrong. I invite you to peruse not only the GCD index on All-Star Comics but also the GCD index on Leading Comics starting with issue 1 (home of DC's other team - the Seven Soldiers of Victory). 

You are literally accusing the man who wrote the first true superhero team story, as a book length adventure, of ripping off "the concept of a full story in a comic" from Jack Kirby. That is rubbish! It was an established and normal concept for superhero team books at DC because of Gardner Fox!

Please stop overclaiming Jack Kirby's influence.  Kirby has a lot of accomplishments. He does not need you trying to push every other creator under water to elevate his reputation. This thread is ridiculous in the amount of overclaims about Kirby and disparaging claims about others you make.

Edited September 27, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 4:35 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

But I wasn't there. You weren't there. Let's hear what someone who WAS there had to say:

Per Bob Beerbohm: 

When I was interviewing Irwin Donenfeld, DC publisher 1953-1968, over the course of a few years 1997-2000 totaling some 18 audio taped hours, one of the many topics we covered and talked extensively about was his idea of a new try-out comic book dubbed Showcase - and its impacts regarding Flash, Challengers of the Unknown, etc covering most all the early issues. As well as when Irwin converted Brave & Bold in to a similar vehicle.

Being groomed by his father Harry Donenfeld to become DC publisher 1953-1968, Irwin was the one - only one - who green-lighted Challs almost right from the git-go. Irwin made all the decisions with all DC comic books 1953 till he was pushed out by Jack Liebowitz...

 

...From Irwin's perspective he said to me, it was Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown which showed the way via hard sales for super heroic revivals to be possible...The real-life published facts "on the ground" bear witness that Kirby's Challengers of the Unknown had some six solo issues before Flash 105 hit the stands in 1959...According to Irwin Donenfeld, Challengers of the Unknown led directly for Justice League of America to be tested in The Brave and the Bold.

So... If you are going to play the comic historian, at least try to be academic (and) not outcome oriented in your fanciful "arguments."

 

You know who was also there?  Gardner Fox.  So was the nascent comic fandom with guys like Jerry Bails who had been begging Fox for a revival of the JSA.  After all, JLA was not created until 1960, after the DC superhero revival had begun. JLA was not even the first DC SA team - the LSH had appeared back in 1958. Your quote from Bob (and I'm not going to enter into the debates about Bob's memory or credibility - I'll give your unlinked comment full credit) is not about creativity - it is about sales. No doubt that successful series like Superboy, Jimmy Olson, Challengers, Showcase itself, Lois Lane (the first title to spin out of Showcase), etc. all had their impact on the publisher's conclusion that new titles could sell. No one claims otherwise that I know of. 

But Challengers was not a superhero comic. No more than Blackhawk (also from 1958):

Edited September 27, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

To quote Joseph Welch: "Have you no decency, sir?  Have you know sense of decency?"

BB 28 was written by Gardner Fox. You are now accusing Gardner frigging Fox of ripping off Jack Kirby on how to write a superhero team comic?  And a JLA story at that!?! Unbelievably ignorant!

Straw man. Never said that. To quote Joseph Welch: "Have you no decency, sir?  Have you know sense of decency?"

I said: the concept of a full story in a comic is still unsure at this point - which it WAS. NO ONE WAS DOING IT.

Gardner may have done it 20 years earlier, but it wasn't in use at that time - ONCE Kirby started to experiment with it again, DC suddenly did a Superman comic with a full story and THEN JLA, suddenly had a full story....

It's not that difficult to see. No one's taking anything away from Gardner Fox, but no one was using full story's at the time.

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

FYI: Gardner Fox wrote many of the JSA stories in All-Star Comics. In fact, he wrote the JSA's FIRST adventure in All-Star 3 way back in 1940.  And guess what?  It was a full comic book length story with multiple chapters.  Yet you think that book length comic stories in superhero team comics were "still unsure" at the time of BB 28?  Guess what? You're wrong. I invite you to peruse not only the GCD index on All-Star Comics but also the GCD index on Leading Comics starting with issue 1 (home of DC's other team - the Seven Soldiers of Victory). 

Yes. They were 'unsure'. No one was doing it 20 YEARS later. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

You are literally accusing the man who wrote the first true superhero team story, as a book length adventure, of ripping off "the concept of a full story in a comic" from Jack Kirby. That is rubbish! It was an established and normal concept for superhero team books at DC because of Gardner Fox!

No. No one is claiming he 'ripped off' anyone. It WASN'T established. It wasn't in use. Jack started using it, 20 years later, in spite of comics' NON use of it. DC followed. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

Please stop overclaiming Jack Kirby's influence. 

No one can over claim Kirby's influence. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

Kirby has a lot of accomplishments. He does not need you trying to push every other creator under water to elevate his reputation.

The only omission I may have made was not including that Gardner Fox had written full length stories 20 years prior. 20 YEARS prior. It's good information, and when Zonker mentioned it, I gave it a thumbs up. It's good to have it listed here.

But in no way, was what I said, meant or inferred or even seen by anyone but you and you're overly drama queen imagination, a slight on Gardner Fox. 

It is what it is. Comics weren't using it. 20 years is a long time. Jack started doing it again and others followed. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:36 AM, sfcityduck said:

This thread is ridiculous in the amount of overclaims about Kirby and disparaging claims about others you make.

When most of your comments are made up straw man claims, it's easy to seem that way. However, the proof is in the work. Some just choose not to see it. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Prince Namor

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:00 AM, Prince Namor said:

To quote Joseph Welch: "Have you no decency, sir?  Have you know sense of decency?"

 

I guess we should both know the actual quote is "Have you no sense of decency?"  That's on me.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

You know who was also there?  Gardner Fox.  So was the nascent comic fandom with guys like Jerry Bails who had been begging Fox for a revival of the JSA.  After all, JLA was not created until 1960, after the DC superhero revival had begun. JLA was not even the first DC SA team - the LSH had appeared back in 1958.

Not in their own comic. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Your quote from Bob (and I'm not going to enter into the debates about Bob's memory or credibility - I'll your unlinked comment full credit) is not about creativity - it is about sales. No doubt that successful series like Superboy, Jimmy Olson, Challengers, Showcase itself, Lois Lane (the first title to spin out of Showcase), etc. all had their impact on the publisher's conclusion that new titles could sell. No one claims otherwise that I know of. 

It's always about sales. 

On 9/27/2022 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

But Challengers was not a superhero comic. No more than Blackhawk (also from 1958):

They gained super powers numerous times throughout and wore uniforms. It's as close at it gets. 

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:00 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

I said: the concept of a full story in a comic is still unsure at this point - which it WAS. NO ONE WAS DOING IT.

Gardner may have done it 20 years earlier, but it wasn't in use at that time - ONCE Kirby started to experiment with it again, DC suddenly did a Superman comic with a full story and THEN JLA, suddenly had a full story....

It's not that difficult to see. No one's taking anything away from Gardner Fox, but no one was using full story's at the time.

 

You have this backwards. Challengers of the Unknown was a book length team story with chapters because that was the norm for DC superhero team books from 1940 to 1951 ONLY SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. Whether Kirby chose to emulate the old format or he was told to do it that way I don't know. But, it wasn't a Kirby invention or innovation - it was a pretty normal DC practice.

Again, you are overclaiming Kirby's influence and ignoring everyone else's.

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:09 AM, sfcityduck said:

You have this backwards. Challengers of the Unknown was a book length team story with chapters because that was the norm for DC superhero team books from 1940 to 1951 ONLY SEVEN YEARS EARLIER. 

That was a long time in the world then. 

On 9/27/2022 at 8:09 AM, sfcityduck said:

Whether Kirby chose to emulate the old format or he was told to do it that way I don't know. But, it wasn't a Kirby invention or innovation - it was a pretty normal DC practice.

No one said it was Kirby's invention or innovation - again you're using straw man arguments - just that he began using it again and DC followed - eventually it became the norm. 

On 9/27/2022 at 8:09 AM, sfcityduck said:

Again, you are overclaiming Kirby's influence and ignoring everyone else's.

No, I'm stating Kirby's influence because everyone else's has CLEARLY been stated throughout decades of comic history. 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Prince Namor

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:18 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

No, I'm stating Kirby's influence because everyone else's has CLEARLY been stated throughout decades of comic history. 

You may be the only comic collector on the planet who thinks that Kirby gets less attention than guys like Gardner Fox. Let's be real: Numerous articles about Kirby over the years, similar to your threads, have overhyped Kirby's role and influence as compared to just about everyone, including Joe Simon his longtime partner. Especially as compared to guys who generally get very little attention in comparison like Gardner Fox, Bill Finger, Jerry Robinson, Bill Everett, etc.

What's ironic is that the person most responsible for the over-hyping of Jack "King" Kirby is Stan Lee. 

The fact that you made the above statement just shows how deep Stan Lee's influence runs in you.

Edited September 27, 2022 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 9/27/2022 at 5:18 AM, Prince Namor said:

That was a long time in the world then. 

No one said it was Kirby's invention or innovation - again you're using straw man arguments - just that he began using it again and DC followed - eventually it became the norm. 

 

Actually, what you said is: "Oh yeah, Brave and the Bold #28! The other thing that this issue does is find a way to tell a full story... they do it by breaking it down into chapters - the concept of a full story in a comic is still unsure at this point - but its also something they got from Kirby's Challengers who did this a number of times."  WRONG.

And you also said: "The only omission I may have made was not including that Gardner Fox had written full length stories 20 years prior. 20 YEARS prior. ... It is what it is. Comics weren't using it. 20 years is a long time. Jack started doing it again and others followed." WRONG AGAIN.

You literally accused Gardner Fox, the man who wrote the first book length superhero team story, breaking it down into chapters, of doing so because its "something they got from Kirby's Challengers" and "Jack started doing it again and others followed."

Again, you got this backwards and you are too stubborn to admit it. You also tried to claim that DC and/or Kirby was not influenced by DC's standard format for superhero team stories because that was "20 years ago." But despite your many repetitions of that assertion, it is not true. Apparently you were unaware that the adventures of the JSA ran as chaptered stories in All-Star from 1940 to 1951. And when called on the falsity of your "20 years ago" assertion, you fell back on the assertion that seven years "was a long time in the world then."  No. Not really. Most of the folks who worked on JSA were still at DC, including Gardner Fox who wrote BB28!  Certainly, Fox didn't forget the many JSA stories he wrote (guys like Jerry Bails and Roy Thomas were writing him about them before JLA was created!). Again, you are trying too hard. Kirby's reputation doesn't need this kind of "help." Fox was not "influenced" by Kirby to write a book length superhero team story with chapters at all.  He had done them throughout the 1940s for the JSA and he did them again when the JSA was revived as the JLA.

Again, please top trying to give Kirby credit for everything in comics - Kirby doesn't deserve it and it does a disservice to other creators like Gardner Fox who Kirby was influenced by.

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by sfcityduck

[Prince Namor]

On 9/27/2022 at 8:41 AM, sfcityduck said:

You may be the only comic collector on the planet who thinks that Kirby gets less attention than guys like Gardner Fox. Let's be real: Numerous articles about Kirby over the years, similar to your threads, have overhyped Kirby's role and influence as compared to just about everyone, including Joe Simon his longtime partner. Especially as compared to guys who generally get very little attention in comparison like Gardner Fox, Bill Finger, Jerry Robinson, Bill Everett, etc.

What's ironic is that the person most responsible for the over-hyping of Jack "King" Kirby is Stan Lee. 

The fact that you made the above statement just shows how deep Stan Lee's influence runs in you.

Jack was promoted on the COVER of comics 20 years before the Marvel Silver Age.