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Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1959) The Uphill Climb
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Started by Prince Namor,

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1959

Over at DC, The Legion of Superheroes would make their 2nd appearance, with Superboy (You know him... one of the earliest Teen Superheroes that wasn't a sidekick - beating out Spider-man by 13 years). Curt Swan cover. Jerry Siegel story with George Papp art. 

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Zonker

Zonker

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On 9/19/2022 at 9:26 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Somehow Kirby is able to talk Goodman into changing his mind. 

 

Any insight into how this played out? We have Kirby's story of showing up when they were moving out the furniture from the Timely offices.  But we normally don't think of Kirby as the one to influence the suits, having generally left that to Joe Simon and Stan Lee (to Kirby's detriment, certainly).  And the monster books that Kirby was doing at this time were more of Goodman's hated sci-fi, weren't they?  Unless what Goodman objected to was the rocket ships & rayguns stuff, rather than the creature-feature genre.

Regardless, kudos to Goodman listening to someone he probably normally thought of as "just the help."  

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Prince Namor

Prince Namor

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On 9/21/2022 at 2:00 PM, Zonker said:

Any insight into how this played out? We have Kirby's story of showing up when they were moving out the furniture from the Timely offices.  But we normally don't think of Kirby as the one to influence the suits, having generally left that to Joe Simon and Stan Lee (to Kirby's detriment, certainly).  And the monster books that Kirby was doing at this time were more of Goodman's hated sci-fi, weren't they?  Unless what Goodman objected to was the rocket ships & rayguns stuff, rather than the creature-feature genre.

Regardless, kudos to Goodman listening to someone he probably normally thought of as "just the help."  

We can go by what Kirby says, which is that he talked Goodman into it. And all the pieces seem to fit together.

Marvel is ready to shut down in Summer of 1958, Kirby says he'll put some books together for them and keep it going. Strange Worlds #1, Tales to Astonish #1, and Tales of Suspense #1 all begin and Marvel is back up and running in September 1958. Stan's Miss America and Homer the Happy Ghost are cancelled to make room for them. 

Kirby isn't sold on Marvel though and continues freelancing at Prize and Archie, and begins doing superheroes again. 

In the Summer of 1959, again Marvel is looking to shut down. Kirby pitches superheroes, but Goodman still isn't convinced. So he pitches the monster books that he says will sell. Kirby has a long history of selling in the business and Goodman agrees. They make him promises... Jack has brought this up... and Kirby leaves JOE SIMON at Archie and goes full on with Marvel.

We get the monster books with catchy names as the focus. 

None of this probably sat well with Stan, who, even though it wasn't all HIS fault where Marvel was, still just wasn't doing anything to really make things better. He just wasn't THAT guy. Never was. They needed one of the greatest storytellers in the history of comics to help them get it going. And he did. Kirby's monster books, of which he had a history of doing, would segue perfectly into the weird type of superheroes he would create and the villains they would face. 

 

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bc

bc

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On 9/20/2022 at 6:02 PM, Prince Namor said:

ON NEWSSTANDS OCTOBER 1959

THIS would be the start of the Kirby Age of Marvel Comics... the battle would begin very soon for who would eventually get the credit.

JACK KIRBY would do TEN (10) of the covers for the month, steering clear of the 'dumb blonde' comics (5) and only missing out on Wyatt Earp #27 (though it's believed he may have penciled one of the figures on the cover). He had clearly made his decision to come on board fully for Marvel at this point, and try and make them some books that sell. 

 

He would do 8 stories in 7 different comics....

And this is where the Monster Books for Marvel really began:

From Journey Into Mystery #56 - Jack Kirby cover, story, and art with Christopher Rule inks. A classic Kirby type of story he'd been doing for years...

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2c

Think that World of Fantasy 18 (on sale date around March 3, 1959) is Kirby's test for the classic PHM monster cover concept:

Cover for World of Fantasy (Marvel, 1956 series) #18

 

This is based on the following criteria that would define this period:

  • Nearly mono-syllabic creature name in big font - Check!
  • Kirby art - Check!
  • Destruction of property - Check!
  • Fleeing humans - Check!
  • Post-Implosion based on Job Code - Check!
  • Kirby monster pants - Unknown

-bc

 

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Prince Namor

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On 9/21/2022 at 6:40 PM, bc said:

2c

Think that World of Fantasy 18 (on sale date around March 3, 1959) is Kirby's test for the classic PHM monster cover concept:

Cover for World of Fantasy (Marvel, 1956 series) #18

 

This is based on the following criteria that would define this period:

  • Nearly mono-syllabic creature name in big font - Check!
  • Kirby art - Check!
  • Destruction of property - Check!
  • Fleeing humans - Check!
  • Post-Implosion based on Job Code - Check!
  • Kirby monster pants - Unknown

-bc

 

Agreed. And by the time they’d have had numbers back (June/July) they’d be able to see the results - positive - to get Goodman to give the thumbs up to try and continue it for ramping back up in the Fall.  

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Mmehdy

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Thank you for one of the best threads on the boards. I can relate to you a story as 50+  year comic book/collector dealer that occured to me in my presence with Stan Lee and the owner of a original comic book art page to FF12  at the SDCC 5/10 years ago and just being in the right place at the right time.

 Stan was signing autographs when this dealer/possible a collector brings out a original FF page from #12 I believe. I was right next to them when Stan took the page and said see these handwritings on the side, that was my writing. He said thanks to the collector for "proving" he was just not a ediitor and he said that it was quite rare to see this page. Gaging his reaction he seemed to really object to the fact that Jack was the sole writer/creator...it was my read of stan. In my prior discussions with Stan in La at book signing, I think it was Boarders 15 plus years ago I discussed what created that magic cira 61/62, which at the time no other company could duplicate and you had to buy them off the newstands in order to understand how much impact they really had. I felt Stans response was that everything kinda fell into place.

 My gut was that Stan put a lot more effort or contribution early on say 1962 than going forward.

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shadroch

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In the early to mid 50s, Stan was responsible for a line of comics which often put out forty or more comics a month. By the late 1950s/early 60s, Marvel was putting out less than ten issues a month and just maybe he was able to give his full attention to a few.

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Prince Namor

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On 9/23/2022 at 8:24 PM, Mmehdy said:

Thank you for one of the best threads on the boards. I can relate to you a story as 50+  year comic book/collector dealer that occured to me in my presence with Stan Lee and the owner of a original comic book art page to FF12  at the SDCC 5/10 years ago and just being in the right place at the right time.

 Stan was signing autographs when this dealer/possible a collector brings out a original FF page from #12 I believe. I was right next to them when Stan took the page and said see these handwritings on the side, that was my writing. He said thanks to the collector for "proving" he was just not a ediitor and he said that it was quite rare to see this page. Gaging his reaction he seemed to really object to the fact that Jack was the sole writer/creator...

Glad you're enjoying it!

In the early days of the FF, Stan wrote on those pages as he and Jack discussed what was going on in the story. Those notes he would make, allowed Stan to then go back and write in dialogue. 

Later on when Jack was no longer coming into the office as much (or at all), Kirby himself would write in the margin notes in larger capital letters for Stan to know what was going on. 

There's a whole website devoted to deciphering all of those margin notes!

My contention with Stan was never that he didn't have 'something' to do with the creation of those characters - he obviously DID, especially in dialogue - put some of his spin on it - but that he a) took all the pay for writing, when it's very clear he didn't do all or sometimes ANY of the writing and b) worked so hard from 'Origins' on to take full credit for the creation process including lying in a Federal Court under oath that he created everything and then simply assigned an artist to draw it. 

At least Bob Kane PAID Bill Finger for the writing he himself took credit for. 

On 9/23/2022 at 8:24 PM, Mmehdy said:

it was my read of stan. In my prior discussions with Stan in La at book signing, I think it was Boarders 15 plus years ago I discussed what created that magic cira 61/62, which at the time no other company could duplicate and you had to buy them off the newstands in order to understand how much impact they really had. I felt Stans response was that everything kinda fell into place.

 My gut was that Stan put a lot more effort or contribution early on say 1962 than going forward.

I like that Stan said that. Everything DID just kind of fall into place, and the mix of those two working together created something really special. 

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Prince Namor

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I'm pretty sure that Lee never wrote FOR Kirby. Kirby never needed anyone to write for him. But I'm also sure, as Mitch says, that Stan had more 'effort or contribution early on' with the, as I'll say, 'pre-decision' of what was going to be in the story. As an example, I'm pretty sure Stan suggested bringing back the Sub-Mariner (and Cap in the Avengers), or having the Hulk guest star. He did the same sort of thing with Ditko in ASM (Hulk to Torch guest starring) - and in both books, once he was doing less of that suggesting, that kind of thing ended. (After ASM #21 - no more guest stars from the other comics in Ditko's stories, or after FF #40 - no more guest stars in Kirby's FF - with the exception of #73).

Which of course, is the kind of decisions an editor makes...

And for Stan, it also rings true of his whole career. Marvel, in the 50's especially, when Stan oversaw a bunch of editors who put the books together, ran a comic line that basically copied what was already popular in the marketplace, while JACK KIRBY was creating new concepts and ideas and content wherever he worked. 

In the late 50's when it was all Stan overseeing Marvel's line... it was floundering. Still copying others... while Jack was constantly coming up with new ideas wherever he was working...

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Prince Namor

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ON NEWSSTANDS NOVEMBER 1959

For November, Stan Lee would write 3 of the titles for the month.

 

Wyatt Earp #28 - 3 stories with MR. Ayers and 1 with Doug Wildey

Gunsmoke Western #57 - 1 story each with Jack Keller, MR. Ayers, Doug Wildey, John Severin and Carl Burgos.

Patsy & Hedy #69 - with Al Hartley art 

 

Marvel released 8 titles in November. The other 5 were:

Battle #69 

Love Romances #86 

My Own Romance #74 

Journey Into Mystery #57

Strange Tales #74 

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