Stan, Jack, and Steve - The 1950's. (1959) The Uphill Climb 2 2

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JUNE 1959

Meanwhile at DC, the editors were still copying Jack Kirby concepts to sell more comics. The Suicide Squad makes their first appearance in Brave and the Bold #25 (Robert Kanigher story - Ross Andru pencils - Mike Esposito inks).

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

For July, (most likely) Martin Goodman tells Stan to publish everything in the cue and stop assignments... the comics division would be shutting down the following month. So Marvel releases 16 titles for July (once again proving 8 was not an edict issued by DC) and would have nothing in August... would this be the end??? 

 

Millie the Model #93 - with art by Stan Goldberg

Patsy & Hedy #67 -  with Al Hartley art 

Patsy Walker #85 -  with Al Hartley art 

Wyatt Earp #26 - 5 stories with MR. Ayers art

GunSmoke Western #55 -  3 stories, one with Jack Keller art, one with Matt Baker art, and the other with MR. Ayers art.

Date with Millie #1 - Stan Goldberg cover, with art by Al Hartley and leftover Dan DeCarlo scraps - this is a second series of this title, the first lasting 7 issues in 1956-57. Probably done in spite, because of DeCarlo leaving, there's a lot of half page and one page filler material here with Stan Lee signing his name all over the place. 

Kathy #1 - with art by Stan Goldberg. A copy of Pines' Kathy Crane (which DeCarlo did freelance work for), Marvel's Kathy Carter is another book probably done in spite that Stan DOES let Goldberg sign his name to as well... in a panel on the last page of story, of course. 

Kid Colt Outlaw #87 - 3 stories with Jack Keller art

Two Gun Kid #50 - 3 stories with John Severin art and 1 with Joe Sinnott art. 

 

Atlas released 16 titles in July. The other 7 were:

Battle #67

Journey Into Mystery #55

Love Romances #84

My Own Romance #72

Strange Tales #72

Tales of Suspense #6

Tales to Astonish #6

Edited September 12, 2022 by Prince Namor

[shadroch]

Marvel put out 16 books dated July and zero books dated August, which means they averaged 8 books for the period. Which is exactly what the DC deal allowed. 

[Prince Namor]

On 9/12/2022 at 10:59 AM, shadroch said:

Marvel put out 16 books dated July and zero books dated August, which means they averaged 8 books for the period. Which is exactly what the DC deal allowed. 

Oh now it's averaged? LOL.

 

In 1961 they'd put out 122 titles - at an 'average' of 10.16 per month. That's more than 8, on average, a month.

In 1962, 133 at an average of 11.08 per month. That's even more...

1963 - 143 (11.91) and more...

1964 - 157 (13.08)

1965 - 167 (13.91)

1966 - 190 (15.83)

1967 - 184 (15.33)

1968 - 235 (19.58)

1969 - 260 (21.66) This is the year the deal ended and they only went up 2 extra books a month???

There's never been ANY documented proof that anyone seems to have ever seen - and this is from people who've been researching this stuff for the last 2+ decades that shows there's anything that exists that says this was a real part of the deal.

Someone just said it - and then it got repeated and repeated and repeated until people believed that it was fact. I have a pretty good idea who...

Though thanks to http://www.mikesamazingworld.com/mikes/ we can see that those numbers don't add up.

And that it's much more likely that Martin Goodman put those restrictions in place, because he wasn't planning on continued publication of comics, but then eased them up over time as the sales went up.

i.e. Jack Kirby, Dick Ayers, and others were right.

[shadroch]

I'm pretty sure you told Mike you had me on ignore.  I promised not to engage so I won't respond.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

Battle #67 - Kirby does the cover (not sure who inked it - maybe himself), plus he wrote and penciled (Christopher Rule inks) a 5 page story inside...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

Journey Into Mystery #55 - Kirby does the cover (not sure who inked it), plus he wrote and penciled (Christopher Rule inks) a 4 page story inside...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

Strange Tales #72 - Kirby does the cover (Christopher Rule inks), plus he wrote and penciled (Steve Ditko inks!) a 5 page story inside...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

Tales of Suspense #6 - Kirby does the cover (Christopher Rule inks), plus he wrote and penciled (also Christopher Rule inks!) a 5 page story inside...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

Tales to Astonish #6 - Kirby does the cover (George Klein inks?), plus he wrote and penciled (Christopher Rule inks) a 4 page story inside...

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Kirby had a big month as Marvel packed everything they had left into the month:

He also did the covers for:

Kid Colt Outlaw #87

Love Romances #84

My Own Romances #72

Wyatt Earp #26

Two Gun Kid #50

 

That's 10 of the 16 covers!

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Jack Kirby of course also had his Sky Masters newspaper strip!

Notice how the characters bicker amongst themselves...

Edited September 15, 2022 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Steve Ditko did 4 stories for Marvel in July. From Journey Into Mystery #55.

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Steve Ditko did 4 stories for Marvel in July. From Strange Tales #72.

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Steve Ditko did 4 stories for Marvel in July. From Tales of Suspense #6.

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Steve Ditko did 4 stories for Marvel in July. From Tales to Astonish #6.

Penciled and inked by Steve Ditko. Writer unknown. NOT written by Stan Lee. 

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS JULY 1959

Over at the DC House of Ideas, the New Silver Age Green Lantern showed up in Showcase #22.

THREE Full YEARS after the first appearance of the Flash in Showcase #4 (it was a bi-monthly book), we get the updated Green Lantern...

Meanwhile Challengers of the Unknown had inspired Space Ranger, Adam Strange, Rip Hunter, and Suicide Squad, with Sea Devils and Cave Carlson to immediately follow.

And the Fantastic Four would have more in common with those type of books than they ever would the Justice League of America...

But hey, some of us already knew that...

[Zonker]

It is a thought-provoking take that the Challengers primarily begat the FF, although as you pointed out, as long ago as 1961 then-fan Roy Thomas was making that connection.  I guess the timing has me puzzled:  if Challengers set the world on fire, and Kirby was at Marvel by 1959, why wait until 1961 to roll out the FF in response?  I'm also curious about the FF as super-heroes as opposed to non-powered adventurers like the Challengers, Adam Strange, Sea Devils, Suicide Squad and the rest.  True, they did not have costumes until #3, but was that only in response to reader feedback, or instead part of the roll-out plan to get Marvel back into the super-heroes genre?  And while the FF started out without costumes, and never had secret IDs, they did have super-powers, and "code names" like conventional superheroes.  

I'll be interested to follow these threads into 1961.  For now it seems like the most likely scenario is Kirby was channeling his Challengers experience into Reed, Sue, Johnny & Ben's origin, while Goodman & Lee were perhaps more responding commercially to the emerging success of Justice League, Green Lantern, and (belatedly) the Flash.  But it will be fascinating to see as we approach November 1961 what you uncover.  

[Prince Namor]

On 9/16/2022 at 2:08 PM, Zonker said:

It is a thought-provoking take that the Challengers primarily begat the FF, although as you pointed out, as long ago as 1961 then-fan Roy Thomas was making that connection.  I guess the timing has me puzzled:  if Challengers set the world on fire, and Kirby was at Marvel by 1959, why wait until 1961 to roll out the FF in response?  I'm also curious about the FF as super-heroes as opposed to non-powered adventurers like the Challengers, Adam Strange, Sea Devils, Suicide Squad and the rest.  True, they did not have costumes until #3, but was that only in response to reader feedback, or instead part of the roll-out plan to get Marvel back into the super-heroes genre?  And while the FF started out without costumes, and never had secret IDs, they did have super-powers, and "code names" like conventional superheroes.  

The easiest answer is that Goodman didn't like superheroes OR sci-fi. He wasn't interested.

In the 40's and 50's he copied trends. Marvel sold comics.

By 1958-1959 he was looking into shutting down the comics division of his company. He wasn't interested in doing superheroes, as they hadn't sold for him since before the war, and he wasn't interested in sci-fi which had never sold for him, all the way back to the pulps. He was NOT a creative mind. He was NOT an artistic mind. He liked Westerns. He liked War. 

He probably had no idea that Challengers did well for DC, the same as he probably had no idea how the Justice League sold for DC. How would he? Those publishers didn't share numbers. And as Marvel distribution was owned by DC, they sure didn't share numbers. And we know Goodman didn't really ever play golf (or socially hang out with) anyone at DC Comics. 

There are theories about how FF came about that we'll explore when we get there....

On 9/16/2022 at 2:08 PM, Zonker said:

I'll be interested to follow these threads into 1961.  For now it seems like the most likely scenario is Kirby was channeling his Challengers experience into Reed, Sue, Johnny & Ben's origin, while Goodman & Lee were perhaps more responding commercially to the emerging success of Justice League, Green Lantern, and (belatedly) the Flash.  But it will be fascinating to see as we approach November 1961 what you uncover.  

Kirby of course used a similar team style even earlier than Challengers of the Unknown:

In The Newsboy Legion, you had Big Words (the team genius), Gabby (an immature, emotional hot-head), and Scrapper (the tough guy), obviously mirroring what would be Mr. Fantastic, Johnny and Ben. Two decades before the FF and Spider-man, the Newsboy Legion had personal problems, worried about earning a living, and argued and lost their tempers with each other. The Newsboy Legion's interactions and hijinks often revolve around Scrapper, just like the FF and Ben. Gabby is often irritating to the more brooding Scrapper/Ben. Gabby and Scrapper often bicker, and their pranks lead to physical fights, just like Johnny and Ben. Scrapper also likes to mock Big Words, much the same way Ben would get on Reed.

There was bickering amongst each other in those Challengers stories as well as in Sky Masters and Race to the Moon. 

The difference is Kirby was more subtle about it. And he did not brag about it to people over and over again. Or claim he had reinvented comic books.

[Prince Namor]

ON NEWSSTANDS AUGUST 1959

Stan Lee does nothing that is released for the month of August as Marvel prepares to shut its doors.

Somehow Kirby is able to talk Goodman into changing his mind. 

His stories change in what's released in October and the pre-hero Monster books really begin.

We've seen some signs of it prior to this, but the names would get more colorful and they'd become larger lettered on the covers...